Is a J frame enough?

[Gun Master]

J Frame Enough ? I Hope So !

People are also over-emphasizing the effectiveness of perfect hits from a handgun round.

In another thread someone (thank you Strahley) linked a great article about a gunfight a cop was involved in where he had a phenomenal combat hit rate with a high capacity G21 .45 ACP...and it didn't mean squat!

http://www.policeone.com/police-hero...r&nlid=6198334

He connected 14/33, (42%) some of the 33 he was trying to skip them off the pavement...his hit rate when aiming at the perp directly was likely over 50%, outstanding in a run and gun firefight. He was also an instructor, SWAT cop and sniper, shooting a full size gun. Way above the average citizen/LE and soldier in terms of skill.

Most germane to this discussion is he scored 6 lethal torso hits including 1 through the heart and the perp kept on fighting. the fight only ended when he got some head shots in. It lasted 58 seconds or so.

The human body has at least 7-30 seconds of conscious voluntary control after being hit in the heart. Plenty of time to beat/stab/shoot you to death even if you put 2x lethal rounds in them right at the start.

The only way to reliably drop an attacker instantly is with a hit to the CNS (brain, high spine), the odds of that in a gunfight are slim.

So, statistical hit rate/capacity analysis aside, no matter how many times you place lethal hits on them, biologically they are a threat until they collapse. Better have a plan B.

Thanks for the Policeone website, but it was not available (3 times). Perhaps I can pull it up later.

There has been a great deal of info to digest, much based on conjecture. What are we to do in the meantime? Something for sure. Hopefully it will be enough.

I am an older individual whose reflexes, general body movements, and cranial processing have all diminished, due to my parents (Mother Nature & Father Time). No preparation equals no defense.

If I'm packin', I have a chance.
If I have my Model 38, I have a chance, maybe 5.
If I carry a reloader, I have a chance , maybe 10.
If I have to process and practice all the info / advise, etc. on this thread, I have little or no chance.

Thanks for the info, but please keep it as simple and practical as possible.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Gun Master: If I'm packin', I have a chance.

Absolutely!

If I have my Model 38, I have a chance, maybe 5.
If I carry a reloader, I have a chance , maybe 10.

Think for just a moment: if someone is trying to kill you, do you really think you would be able to reload? Before you answer, I think the answer is yes--if you have two Model 38s. They call that a "New York Reload".

If I have to process and practice all the info / advise, etc. on this thread, I have little or no chance.

Understood.

Some of us have been wrestling with this issue for some years now.

Some of us have read a lot of posts and links about hit rate and about handgun wounding effectiveness.

Some of us have taken different degrees of relevant training.

JohnKSa put in a great deal of effort to run the numbers based on assumptions that do appear to be reasonable, and he tried to present them in an understandable way.

But there is no denying that this is not a simple subject.

If I could come up with a simpler way to discuss this, I would. Let me sleep on it.

Let me suggest this: first, accept that the number of rounds you will need should be assessed on the basis of the assumption that you will in fact have to shoot.

That's where most people get led astray, and that is not a criticism or their intelligence or level of education. Heck, I had keen thinking the very same way. And my background had been in risk management, which is what this all about.

Then, see how you can do in a rapid fire exercise with varying numbers of shots. Either shoot at one target and then another and then another very rapidly to simulate a moving target, and see how many times you can hit them, or see if there's somewhere where you can shoot very rapidly at a moving target, maybe with an Airsoft gun. Remember that 'winning' means hitting each target more than once--you choose the number.

I hope this has been helpful.

 

[strambo]

Thanks for the info, but please keep it as simple and practical as possible.

Heh, OK. The instant you know you are in a violent situation: draw and shoot each threat center chest while moving until they drop.

If you run out of ammo before they drop; either run away to cover or close and beat them to death with the empty gun.

Running to cover, reloading, and re-engaging is also appropriate if able.

Sorry about the link not working, looks like that site is temporarily down.

 

[Gun Master]

J Frame Enough ?

Absolutely!
Think for just a moment: if someone is trying to kill you, do you really think you would be able to reload? Before you answer, I think the answer is yes--if you have two Model 38s. They call that a "New York Reload".

Understood.

Some of us have been wrestling with this issue for some years now.

Some of us have read a lot of posts and links about hit rate and about handgun wounding effectiveness.

Some of us have taken different degrees of relevant training.

JohnKSa put in a great deal of effort to run the numbers based on assumptions that do appear to be reasonable, and he tried to present them in an understandable way.

But there is no denying that this is not a simple subject.

If I could come up with a simpler way to discuss this, I would. Let me sleep on it.

Let me suggest this: first, accept that the number of rounds you will need should be assessed on the basis of the assumption that you will in fact have to shoot.

That's where most people get led astray, and that is not a criticism or their intelligence or level of education. Heck, I had keen thinking the very same way. And my background had been in risk management, which is what this all about.

Then, see how you can do in a rapid fire exercise with varying numbers of shots. Either shoot at one target and then another and then another very rapidly to simulate a moving target, and see how many times you can hit them, or see if there's somewhere where you can shoot very rapidly at a moving target, maybe with an Airsoft gun. Remember that 'winning' means hitting each target more than once--you choose the number.

I hope this has been helpful.

Thanks.

 

[Gun Master]

Subject: Is J Frame Enough ?

Heh, OK. The instant you know you are in a violent situation: draw and shoot each threat center chest while moving until they drop.

If you run out of ammo before they drop; either run away to cover or close and beat them to death with the empty gun.

Running to cover, reloading, and re-engaging is also appropriate if able.

Sorry about the link not working, looks like that site is temporarily down.

Thanks.

 

[johnnylaw53]

I have really enjoy reading this tread and some make some very good points. I do have a question. Have anyone ever read about an incident where what ever a person was carrying prove to not be enough? I'm not talking about leo's or military type action but just a regular person who was attacked. I have read a story on North American Arms site where a older gentleman defended his home with just a NAA .22 lr. Of course I'm not suggesting that we should all carry a .22 but it seems that what ever we carry there a good chance it will be enough since the people that try to make victims out of us don't expect us to be carrying anything. Just my thoughts.

Be safe

 

[tomrkba]

So--how well do you do when the target is moving in changing directions at a speed of 5 to 7 yards per second?

How quickly can you do that...

...while you are attempting to get behind something or out of his way?

If you are shooting him for the first time at 5 feet, how do you expect to stop him before he does you in...

Craig Douglas' ECQC course addresses everything in the example. While the course description states "0 to 5 feet", students engage at longer distances and the live fire portions of the class go to seven yards (as I recall; it may have gone to ten yards). I did take five to seven yard shots with the Simunition guns, but the majority were from zero to twelve inches because the "aggressors" were very, very fast.

Have anyone ever read about an incident where what ever a person was carrying prove to not be enough?

Yes, there are several. John Farnham relates several stories where off duty cops carried their guns, but no reloads. In one instance, the officer's gun ran out of ammunition and he died with a bullet hole through his hand. I cannot remember the case; you'd have to search John Farnham's Quips to find it. I think Ayoob reported on a case where a cop got in a gun fight with a criminal, used all his ammunition, returned to the car to reload and continued the fight. These are edge cases, but there is no reason not to carry at least one full reload or a minimum of 15 rounds...and a knife.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by strambo: If you run out of ammo before they drop; either run away to cover or close and beat them to death with the empty gun.

I prefer to avoid running out.

Running to cover, reloading, and re-engaging is also appropriate if able.

I'm having trouble visualizing when "re-engaging" might be justifiable for someone other than a sworn officer.

I was once pretty quick out to 100 yards, but I cannot run any more at all, so that's not an option.

 

[pezo]

I have to chime in on the running suggestion. I had two acquaintances I knew who were shot to death while running. One actually tried to drive off during a car jacking and was hit 3 bullets through the door ( reported as a .357 magnum revolver). DOA. The other fella ran of and was shot in the back up teen time ( 9mm semi auto). Again DOA. I'm at a belief you would be better off jumping on top of the aggressor than running. That said I carry an lcr .38. And two sometime 4 reloads. Two speed loaders and two speed strips. A mini mag rides on the ankle because why not. Too small not to carry

 

[Gun Master]

Reloads & Schrade Cheese Slicer/Hog Sticker.

Craig Douglas' ECQC course addresses everything in the example. While the course description states "0 to 5 feet", students engage at longer distances and the live fire portions of the class go to seven yards (as I recall; it may have gone to ten yards). I did take five to seven yard shots with the Simunition guns, but the majority were from zero to twelve inches because the "aggressors" were very, very fast.




Yes, there are several. John Farnham relates several stories where off duty cops carried their guns, but no reloads. In one instance, the officer's gun ran out of ammunition and he died with a bullet hole through his hand. I cannot remember the case; you'd have to search John Farnham's Quips to find it. I think Ayoob reported on a case where a cop got in a gun fight with a criminal, used all his ammunition, returned to the car to reload and continued the fight. These are edge cases, but there is no reason not to carry at least one full reload or a minimum of 15 rounds...and a knife.

Your last paragraph : Me too. Reloads (at least 5 rds.) and one-handed "sharp" knife>Ugggg.

 

[David E]

I have to chime in on the running suggestion. I had two acquaintances I knew who were shot to death while running. One actually tried to drive off during a car jacking and was hit 3 bullets through the door ( reported as a .357 magnum revolver). DOA. The other fella ran of and was shot in the back up teen time ( 9mm semi auto). Again DOA. I'm at a belief you would be better off jumping on top of the aggressor than running. That said I carry an lcr .38. And two sometime 4 reloads. Two speed loaders and two speed strips. A mini mag rides on the ankle because why not. Too small not to carry

This is why I get irritated when people say "cover!cover!cover!cover!" Etc

Cover is nice, get it when you can, but it's not the Number One Priority.

 

[strambo]

I agree running can be dangerous. In military history casualties are horrific once once side breaks and runs. I only mentioned it in the context of being out of ammo. Empty hand, surrender, or run, only options left then.

At bad breath range, I personally wouldn't run, but then I have an awful lot of high end H2H training that most don't.

Heck, most gun owners don't even get any formal firearms training as evidenced by the threads we've had on the subject. Here on THR, the "Strategies & Tactics" sub-forum is one of the least viewed and posted in. People want to buy, talk and read about things (guns, gear..."stuff"), not get and read/talk about training.

I'd take high quality H2H training instead of a J frame (or any gun) and no training if that was a choice.

 

[pezo]

Hand to hand training is a great thing. Some people such as females and seniors who lack the strength need to also increase situational awareness the most, then weapons proficiency. The thinking mind is the best weapon. I'll add faith in god to prevail and determination.

 

[ACP]

Yes, a j-frame is enough. Two is even better. And I've carried most everything in nearly 20 years.

 

[tomrkba]

Here is the policeone.com link:

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

If that does not work, go to google and paste this in:

siteoliceone.com Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job


Here is the "lessons learned" follow-up article:

http://www.policeone.com/columnists/charles-remsberg/articles/6199938-lessons-learned-from-facing-an-invincible-assailant/


Also notice that the officer went to the Glock 17 in 9mm. It is not clear to me whether or not that change was voluntary or mandated by the department.

 

[2ndamd]

J-frame was enough for Jim Cirillo and Jerry Usher. Both of who have been in more gun fights than anyone on this board. New York and Chicago police officers that have survived more lethal encounters than any others I have heard about. Both carried and used 5 shot snubbies.

The lawful citizens objective in a lethal force situation is to get removed from the situation or stop the threat.

5 shots is enough.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by 2ndamd: J-frame was enough for Jim Cirillo and Jerry Usher. Both of who have been in more gun fights than anyone on this board. New York and Chicago police officers that have survived more lethal encounters than any others I have heard about. Both carried and used 5 shot snubbies.

From what I've read, Cirrillo often carried a Model 10 plus a Colt Cobra. That's 12 shots.

He is quoted as later preferring to carry two .40 caliber Glocks.

The lawful citizens objective in a lethal force situation is to get removed from the situation or stop the threat.

True fact!

5 shots is enough.

Sometimes. Sometimes not.

Here's a link to a very small sample of actual data, of which there are very little available.

It covers 63 civilian shooting incidents; 75% included more than one assailant. The assailant was moving 63% of the time, and the defender, 89%.

The "average" number of shots fired by the defender was 4.7, That's obviously a mean, sinc no one fired 4.7 rounds. We do not have a median or a mode or a distribution.

As I recall, these data are generally consistent with the Rangemaster data in Tom Givens' Lessons from the Street.

 

[fastbolt]

As these thread topics involving diminutive, low capacity handguns versus larger, high capacity handguns tend to run on & on, it occurs to me that some folks may consider themselves "well-armed" simply based upon the capacity of a handgun.

Personally, I never really felt I was "well-armed" on-duty when I carried either a 6-rd .357 Magnum service revolver and a pair of speedloaders or a 15+1 9mm and 2 spare 15-rd magazines. It was still just a handgun I was carrying.

I considered myself armed, but not well-armed. It was what I was able to carry under normal circumstances.

 

[Gun Master]

J Frame Enough ?

J-frame was enough for Jim Cirillo and Jerry Usher. Both of who have been in more gun fights than anyone on this board. New York and Chicago police officers that have survived more lethal encounters than any others I have heard about. Both carried and used 5 shot snubbies.

The lawful citizens objective in a lethal force situation is to get removed from the situation or stop the threat.

5 shots is enough.

Well, nice to know.

I'd carry a Barrett Rifle, if it were feasible. Those J frames are just so darned convenient.

 

[Kleanbore]

Just to Set the Record Straight

Cirillo, from the horse's mouth:

"If you're concerned about concealment, your firearm pick should be reduced in size and bulk but not in power. I would consider the 9mm marginal and would try to use +P or better ammo in it. The Glock 27 in .40 S&W would be my choice.

"In my own case, if I were still on the NYCPD Stakeout Squad, this mini Glock would be my second gun and the Glock 21 in .45 ACP would be my main weapon. My present favorite carry guns are a Smith & Wesson double action only .40 S&W and a Glock 23 in .40 S&W."

Source-- Guns, Bullets and Gunfights: Lessons and tales from a Modern Day Gunfighter by Jim Cirillo

Also in that work, Cirillo relates an incident in which one Stakeout Squad officer fired six shots from his backup Detective Special and another office fired five shots from his backup Chief's Special, and all eleven shots hit the head of an attacker, who was then handcuffed and taken into custody. Cirillo had been contending that the .38 Special loads of the day (158 grain LRN) were inadequate.

Most of the illustrations in the book show Cirillo with a semiautomatic pistol; the revolvers shown are all six shot firearms.
>>>>>>>>

For police work, he preferred shotguns.

When he was with the NYPD, Cirillo carried two Model 10 revolvers, a Colt Cobra, and a PPK. He credits Massad Ayoob with coining the term "New York Reload."

Source-- Jim Cirillo's Tales of the Stakeout Squad by Paul Kirchner.

 

[Combat Engineer]

"...fired six shots from his backup Detective Special and another office fired five shots from his backup Chief's Special, and all eleven shots hit the head of an attacker, who was then handcuffed and taken into custody." [Kleanbore]

I guess in that incident 5 shots were not enough.

Am carrying a j-frame today, but my primary is a Sig 229 in 40SW. Think I'll retire the j-frame BUG and replace it with the PPK.

 

[xXxplosive]

It's all about target acquisition and placement ......those were all head shots without any penetration.

 

[Rexster]

I have only very rarely carried a J-frame as my only weapon, except when doing something such as going on a run, that made anything larger problematic. Partly, this is because I swore an oath that compels me to act in defense of others. I then, of course, started making a portion of the populace rather un-fond of me.

Partly, it is because, early in my gun-toting days, I read an article penned by Evan Marshall, in which he wrote of a five-shot snubby barely being enough to survive being caught in an armed robbery attempt. I do not recall the details of his long-ago shoot-out, but remember that article having an effect on my thought process.

Partly, it is because I came of age, during a time when the nearby large city, in the same county, was vying for murder capital of the USA, during the oil boom of that time. I then became an LEO in that city.

Partly, it is because I did not really learn how to shoot a J-snub well until quite some time later, in the late 1980s or early 1990s. Until that time, I tended to regard a J-frame as close-range nasal spray, to only be used at contact distance, or nearly so. It did not help that my first Model 60 had a tremendously heavy and gritty trigger pull, not an uncommon problem during S&W's Bangor Punta era. My long hands played a part in that, too; a J-frame's trigger reach requires me to do some things quite differently than with a superb-fitting K/L-frame sixgun.

Another factor is that I learned early to dress around larger handguns, often choosing to carry my duty handgun concealed during my own time. Moreover, I came to love the slightly-larger Ruger SP101 in the mid/late 1990s, so for nearly two decades, my snubby choice has been just a bit larger than the J.

Obviously, my LEO status affects how I think about this subject. I could not legally carry until I started wearing a badge, and can only speculate how it will be to wind-down after retirement.

 

[Manny]

I carry a Ruger KLCR loaded w/ .38+p. May not be enough for some extreme situations, but it's what I'm comfortable carrying. Like everyone else, I play the odds. Most likely a gun will never be needed, if it is chances are 5 will be enough. The easy carrying nature of a J frame sized weapon gives the best chance that a weapon will be present when needed. I've not yet found a higher capacity weapon that carrys as easy that I have faith in, so the KLCR will continue as default.

 

[Gun Master]

Is J Frame Enough ? You Answer The Question, not Someone Else!

All the people participating in this thread, represent a wide range of ages, abilities (physical and otherwise), gun acumen or knowledge, etc., and there is no "one size fits all". We, the participants, are responsible for evaluating the information rendered by the experts and others, then making our own decisions.

I particularly liked the LEO who said policemen usually preferred to rely on the shotgun for their mainline defense. Well, I would call that a good choice, and probably be my choice also, in most situations.

But guess what? They don't license an ordinary citizen to carry a shotgun in my state!

In my home, it is a different story. I may defend my home with the weapon of my choice.

For CCW my only option is a handgun. And that is after taking an eight hour gun safety course, ending with a written test, actual firing of a handgun, and overall evaluation (including a background check) to see if I should be licensed.

After being issued my CCW Permit, I may choose the handgun I prefer to carry. I am allowed to change my choice, as I see fit. I am also not limited to the number of handguns I carry. Probably I would choose three or more guns, if it were not for the extra weight of the guns, ammo, and gear, plus being more difficult to conceal.

You and I must be, and should be, the ones to choose the carry.

I usually carry a J frame, considering all the facts (weight, power, # of rds., reliability, etc.). Sometimes it's two or three, and the J is usually part of the group.

So, is a J frame enough ?