Is a J frame enough?

[2ndamd]

Clint Smith says that a handgun (any) is not enough.
We just use sidearms to get us to our rifles we should not have left behind.
Any snubnose will get you out of a fight and back to your rifles.

Some logic here would confirm that any handgun is not enough.

We preach 45
Shoot 9mm
And carry a 38



Best of the best leave with a 38 each day


Personally?
I carry a 357....ok two.
;-)

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by 2ndamd: Any snubnose will get you out of a fight and back to your rifles.

On what do you base that assertion?

And by the way, were I to be attacked somewhere by one or more vlolent criminal actors, I see no reason to place getting "back to [my] rifles" high on the priority list. If I can "get out of a fight", it's OVER.

By definition.

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff would observe that it’s the usual nature of shooting incidents and gunfights to occur quickly and unexpectedly. This being the case it is likely everything will be all over before one can fight his/her way back to better hardware. That said, I suppose it is customary in Texas to carry at least two Magnum six-shooters, and thereby be prepared for any eventuality. Carrying around a rifle all day can be a tremendous burden.

 

[Tn Tom]

Im in as low a profile lifestyle possible my profile will only be lower when Im dead and I carry my 1911 10+1 either in a shoulder holster or on my hip when I go to town. I shoot it a lot and if I had a shorter barreled .44mag it would be the one, I shoot it a lot to. Would I take it to a Packers game, why not, movie theater? yep Bar yep anywhere I damn well please.
I really liked the open carry when I lived in Az. No b/s As often as I might have to shoot it a .454 Casull could even be the ticket. The R Bull way to big but the Alaskan with the 2" or 2 1/2" barrel would ideal.
The way I look at it if I had to shoot someone I want to hit them as hard as I can with every intention of killing them or hurting them really bad so the odds of getting off another shot goes up.
I have a detective special that I love dearly but some 300 lb meth head wont even blink even if you shot him in the eye, well you know what I mean.

I dont think Id wear anything (a gun) when Im playing soccer (Oh I dont know how to play soccer). Do you carry a gun at your middle school boys soccer game? Heavens no!

 

[orionengnr]

I'm not saying it is, and I'm not saying it isn't. I will say this:

Kleanbore:
Post #150 hit the nail on the head for me.

Let me repeat it a third time or fourth time ...

Jim Cirillo and JERRY USHER both have won more handgun fights with a .38 (Jerry used j-frames) than anyone on this board will ever know.

You may repeat it as many times as you choose. You may shout it from the rooftop, if you like. It will remain irrelevant and unconvincing. Why?

Jack Brabham and John Surtees used to win F1 races in cars with skinny tires and what, 300 hp? What does that mean? It means that they used the best equipment available at the time.

 

[jimbo555]

So what is the modern equipment to replace the j-frame that is as easy to carry, as reliable and as powerful? Small 380's? Mini 9's? None I've tried are as reliable under adverse conditions. High capacity autos require much more effort to carry.

 

[boricua9mm]

Glock 26. The J-Frame's worst nightmare since 1994.

 

[sixgunner455]

Seriously? You think the best answer of capacity, weight, and concealability that is the answer to the snubby's perceived inadequacies is a Glock 26? I'm sure you like yours, and I guess they're sort of okay to shoot, but that gun is only a partial answer, and a rather unsatisfactory one to me.

The capacity is nice. The weight isn't terrible, and certainly better than an all-steel pistol that size would be. But the feel and concealability issues are not even close.

I already have bigger, heavier guns than my 642. I don't have another that conceals as well.

 

[Kernel]

"... worse nightmare..."

Yeah, because the Glock might sit on it and crush it flat as a pancake.

A loaded Glock 26 weighs 50% more than a loaded 638. For that reason (and others) I prefer the Airweight in my front pocket.

 

[2ndamd]

Repeat:
Unlike the car racing world, in the gun world The Best of the Best STILL carry a snubby each day they leave their house.
They even joked about it when there were over 100 of the best in the country arrived in one room. They all looked at what they were carrying.....guess what the best were carrying...a snubby! YIKES! EEK! OMG! Only 5 shots were being carried by these professional gun writers, instructors, and competition winners? But, they all preach carrying a .45? Why were they carrying a snubby?

They all laughed and joked that:
"We all Preach carry a .45
We all Shoot 9mm
And we're all Carrying a .38"

Even with today's modern wonder super guns....the snubnose gets the nod each day by the best of the best.

This happen still pretty recently.

All handguns are NOT ENOUGH by conventional wisdom because a rifle would be better.
j-frame will get you out of a fight.
That tends to be all the law abiding citizen is looking for...or so I thought.
(internet warriors and mall ninjas excluded)

 

[2ndamd]

That said, I suppose it is customary in Texas to carry at least two Magnum six-shooters, and thereby be prepared for any eventuality.

Five shot 357 magnums and I travel the entire border of south Texas, from Brownsville to El Paso.

 

[j1]

It served the detectives of the NYCPD for many years. It serves me very well in a good holster. Self defense is usually a close up situation. 38 jhp is a close up cartridge.

 

[Doug S]

I like what Chuck Taylor said, it went something like this...handguns in civilian CCW are a last ditch, up close and personal, emergency tool used by a person in an attempt to regain some control in an out of control life and death situation.

I think a snubnose revolver is potentially a superb tool for such a job. Also, just a we can come up with all kind of scenarios where the snub might be inadequate, I can likewise think of a few where the snub (especially in the form of a S&W Centennial) would be the best tool for this kind of job. I've finally learned to leave the fantasy games to Internet gun forums, and to live life as it comes, prepared as best I can be, within the context of my personal needs.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by 2ndamd: Even with today's modern wonder super guns....the snubnose gets the nod each day by the best of the best.

Who among the "best of the best" still makes it a general practice to select a single five shot revolver for primary defensive carry when he or she has a choice?

Do you have a reason to disagree with the opinion of Ed Lovette, author of The Snubby Revolver, The ECQ, Backup, and Concealed Carry Standard?

From Chapter 21:

Much as I love the five shot, it is at its best in a backup role to a bigger gun.
You shouldn’t carry a five shot 2 inch as your primary sidearm.

Even a most cursory thumbing through of the book will tell you that Mr. Lovette strongly preferred 6 shot revolvers.

j-frame will get you out of a fight.

One more time--what is your basis for that unsubstantiated assertion? Repeating it over and over does not support it.

Just what is it that you would want to have with you "get you out of a fight", if in fact you cannot evade and escape and a "fight" should take place?

That tends to be all the law abiding citizen is looking for...or so I thought.

Well, yeah, and most of the time that is in fact the legal obligation of anyone of anyone who is not a sworn officer.

And that really eliminates from consideration the supposed strategy of trying to "get back to your rifles".

But if you cannot prevent a fight from taking place, you will have to do something to prevent the assailants from causing you serious bodily harm. You key be able to dissuade them, or you may have to cause them serious injury. Would you really want to rely upon a single J-Fame revolver for that, considering the stakes?

Reflect upon this: based upon your training and other training and FoF simulation exercises that you have observed, how many shots would you reasonably expect to fire as quickly as you can at the outset at a fast charging violent criminal actor (think Tueller)?

What would you expect do of there were a second attacker who elected to press the attack?

Do you like the idea of having a reserve?

Do the answers to those questions give you any reasonable confidence in the strategy of relying upon a single five shot revolver?

 

[jimbo555]

Well said, DougS!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by j1: It served the detectives of the NYCPD for many years.

Yeah, but except in screen dramatizations, it (the J-Frame) was generally for back-up.

Here's a post from another board from a NYPD detective:

We have a choice of carrying either a Glock 23 or a Glock 27 (both department issued). I carry a Glock 23. For years, we were allowed to carry our own pistols or revolvers, and I carried a Smith & Wesson Model 65 (.357 revolver) with a three inch barrel. I often carry my little Smith & Wesson 637 (.38 cal) 5 shot revolver as a back up.

In over 30 years as a detective, I have seen a wide variety of firearms carried by detectives in different departments. Almost everyone today carries semi-automatic pistols, with Glocks and Sigs as big favorites.

(emphasis added)

There was an article about another NYCPD detective who retired in 2012 who had been "grandfathered" and allowed to continue carrying revolvers. He said he carried a six shot Smith plus a J-Frame in an ankle holster.

But what may have served for many years in the past is not really very relevant, is it. After all, when Theodore Roosevelt was Police Commissioner in New York, the standard police revolver was a .32 Long.

I have one, and I have defended myself with it , but I sure wouldn't choose it if I had a better choice.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Doug S: I like what Chuck Taylor said, it went something like this...handguns in civilian CCW are a last ditch, up close and personal, emergency tool used by a person in an attempt to regain some control in an out of control life and death situation.

That is well put. It also applies to a blade or a flashlight or a tactical pen or an improvised weapon, if that's all you have.

I think a snubnose revolver is potentially a superb tool for such a job.

Absolutely, and Ed Lovette describes a number of ways to use it effectively.

Also, just a we can come up with all kind of scenarios where the snub might be inadequate, I can likewise think of a few where the snub (especially in the form of a S&W Centennial) would be the best tool for this kind of job.

So can I.

I would prefer to have more than one tool, however.

 

[couldbeanyone]

Look folks, more is always better, but will you really carry it? That is what you have to ask yourself. Would i be really comfortable carrying only a j-frame? The answer is no. Would I be comfortable carrying only a 15 shot 9mm? The answer is no. No matter what you carry, you are one squib that lodges a bullet in your barrel away from being out of business. That being said, I carry a five shot revolver. I carry two of them in fact, often with a NAA mini-revolver as a back up. I carry Taurus 85s.
I practice a lot, i have somehow gone through almost 10,000 38 specials in the last year, all through five shot snubs. No, i don't shoot IPSC, but I practice with a guy who does. I always tell him to set up the scenario and I will deal with it. I practice shooting the first gun dry and then dropping it and grabbing the next. I don't mean gently lay it down either, I mean just drop it as your hand moves toward the next gun. I can keep up pretty darn good until I get down to the NAA mini-revolver. Would I give IPSC a try, yes, but they won't let me use more than one gun and drop them as they run dry.
So in my opinion a j-frame is not enough, but neither is any other one gun. If you haven't ever lodged a bullet in a barrel with a squib, you just haven't shot enough yet. I would always rather have two smaller guns than one big one. But everyone must decide where they want to draw the line.

 

[2ndamd]

I like what Chuck Taylor said, it went something like this...handguns in civilian CCW are a last ditch, up close and personal, emergency tool used by a person in an attempt to regain some control in an out of control life and death situation.

I think a snubnose revolver is potentially a superb tool for such a job. Also, just a we can come up with all kind of scenarios where the snub might be inadequate, I can likewise think of a few where the snub (especially in the form of a S&W Centennial) would be the best tool for this kind of job. I've finally learned to leave the fantasy games to Internet gun forums, and to live life as it comes, prepared as best I can be, within the context of my personal needs.

Well said Doug S.
And, for that reason "I'm out"

 

[Kleanbore]

And expanding a little upon what Doug S said....

....I can likewise think of a few where the snub (especially in the form of a S&W Centennial) would be the best tool for this kind of job.

I just went out and got a haircut with those words fresh on my mind.

I was carrying a compact 9MM, IWB on the right side. It conceals very easily and I can shoot it well. I think it would do the trick, if I do mine, and if I can get to it.

But when I am sitting in the driver seat with the harness on, that may not be all that easy. What if someone climbs in with me after my passenger has gotten out?

What better solution is there than also carrying a concealed hammer revolver in a left hand vest or jacket pocket.

That also helps mitigate the risk of a malfunction.

Believe me, I am very seriously considering that strategy.

Just might start today....

Thanks, Doug!
________________________
Update: already doing it. With a low of 4 degrees tonight I am wearing a vest, and I do not have to leave a jacket with anyone.

Overkill? I might have thought so once, but I do not think so now.

Couldbeanyone nailed it:

No matter what you carry, you are one squib that lodges a bullet in your barrel away from being out of business.

So in my opinion a j-frame is not enough, but neither is any other one gun.

 

[Doug S]

I just went out and got a haircut with those words fresh on my mind.

I was carrying a compact 9MM, IWB on the right side. It conceals very easily and I can shoot it well. I think it would do the trick, if I do mine, and if I can get to it.

But when I am sitting in the driver seat with the harness on, that may not be all that easy. What if someone climbs in with me after my passenger has gotten out?

What better solution is there than also carrying a concealed hammer revolver in a left hand vest or jacket pocket.

That also helps mitigate the risk of a malfunction.

Believe me, I am very seriously considering that strategy.

Just might start today....

Thanks, Doug!

In the scenario you describe a J-frame S&W Centennial would not only most likely be enough gun, but quite possibly the perfect one.

 

[Gun Master]

J Frame Enough ?

I'm reminded of the bread salesman, who came to a gun shop to purchase a CCW. He had recently been robbed, and wanted to get a .45 ACP 1911, "that would blow 'em away", or something to that effect.

The gun dealer showed him a 5 shot J frame, to which he responded, "No, I want a .45." The dealer told him a .45 was heavy, and he'd probably quit carrying it for that reason. The customer insisted on, and purchased, the .45.

A few weeks later, the man came back to buy a gun. You know what happened. He lugged the .45 for several days/weeks, but left it in his truck because "It was too heavy." He was jumped and robbed by thugs.

He walked out the door with a J frame that day.

Moral of story : Your biggest bad gun, does you no good at home (and maybe in your truck), since you can't predict when you need it. Better to be armed than unarmed.

 

[george29]

I actually read the entire thread this time and have to say that most opinions have been represented. Here's mine; when I was in uniform my J frame (60) resided in my front left pocket shirt or front right pocket pants (where my 640 now resides whenever I have pants on). As a civilian I remember a road rage incident at 2am, a gang banger incident at 11pm, and an irate husband at 4 pm(wife ran into my grandmothers house because he was beating her). The road rager apparently understood that I was armed and turned around, the gang bangers (3) didn't know all I had was a P-32, the irate husband saw my 1911 in my waistband and apologized. I know one thing, have a gun. The worst case is you died trying and didn't die cowering. Have a backup gun, always. A gun is a mechanical instrument that will fail you at the worst time. Get a Ruger or Kel Tec 380 or a NAA as a BUG. Throw a Mosin M44 in your trunk, it holds 5 rounds and costs $120 or a single barrel 12 gauge for $80. On trips out of the city my 640 and NAA reside in my pockets, the 13-3 on the floor next to the 4x4 lever, my Marlin 357 on the rear bench. I don't look for trouble, know how to defuse a situation, have a high awareness level and emphatically believe a 5 shot anything by itself is wonderful until you think you need it. I consider it my 7 yard answer to a problem that i hope never arises.

 

[TestPilot]

Posted by Doug S:
I like what Chuck Taylor said, it went something like this...handguns in civilian CCW are a last ditch, up close and personal, emergency tool used by a person in an attempt to regain some control in an out of control life and death situation.

I think a snubnose revolver is potentially a superb tool for such a job.
...

Chuck Taylor does not have a crystal ball that tells him how my deadly force encounter will go, and neither do you have a crystal ball that tells you whether if 5 shots will be all it takes for a last ditch.

Superb tool for the job? Superb compared to what?

It is superb compared to nothing.

But, if you are arguing that it is superb compared to pistols with more capacity and that are easier to shoot more accurately, that would be a weird reasoning.

...
Also, just a we can come up with all kind of scenarios where the snub might be inadequate, I can likewise think of a few where the snub (especially in the form of a S&W Centennial) would be the best tool for this kind of job.
....

Other than cases where larger guns cannot be carried, I can't think of a single scenario where a snub noes will perform better in combat.

...fantasy games ...

Does fighing one or two armed criminals when I cannot avoid it constitute a "fantasy game" to you? That's the scenario I find 5 shot snubby inadequate for.

Of course, ANY GUN would suffice for criminals "who really don't want to fight." But, I carry in preparation for real threats, not a wanna be threat.

 

[TestPilot]

Posted by Gun Master:
I'm reminded of the bread salesman, who came to a gun shop to purchase a CCW. He had recently been robbed, and wanted to get a .45 ACP 1911, "that would blow 'em away", or something to that effect.

The gun dealer showed him a 5 shot J frame, to which he responded, "No, I want a .45." The dealer told him a .45 was heavy, and he'd probably quit carrying it for that reason. The customer insisted on, and purchased, the .45.

A few weeks later, the man came back to buy a gun. You know what happened. He lugged the .45 for several days/weeks, but left it in his truck because "It was too heavy." He was jumped and robbed by thugs.

He walked out the door with a J frame that day.

Moral of story : Your biggest bad gun, does you no good at home (and maybe in your truck), since you can't predict when you need it. Better to be armed than unarmed.

"Better than nothing" and "enough" is a different matter.