Is AP ammunition legal in VA?

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ROBO4642

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Well I read the ATF document concerning ammunition restrictions in VA however it still remains unclear. It used acronyms for ammunition I have never heard of, in other words not the usual HE, AP etc. They mentioned something about a plastic coating but they werent talking about AT ammunition. I dont want to break any laws so if anyone can help me out on this one I would appreciate it. Thanks
 
OK... lets see, To own Armor Piercing components is Not illegal. If you or somebody else assembles them into live ammo, YES they are illegal. Like, you can buy pulled AP bullets all day long off the net ( just the bullet alone ) when it's made live, You Be in deep Doo. Just remember Usual legal rule of thumb, If Federal says NO, then state cannot say yes. And if Federal says YES, then state CAN say no. ( Sometimes this doesn't ALWAYS work, but is a very good basic thought)
 
ATA, are you talking about VA law? I see AP, tracer, and incendiary ammo (loaded live cartridges, rifle not handgun) on Gunbroker all the time.
 
I'm not trying to start something,

But while I have no use for silly rules promulgated by any governmental authority, the plain fact is that at distances close enough to determine the target is a threat, 30 caliber ball ammo will walk through most vehicles. While it is nice to have, I won't be upset if I have none. Have you ever seen what a .243 bullet will do to a 1/4" mild steel plate? It just seems to melt through, not even shaking the 8" round plate hung on a cable.
 
Federally, Tracer and those are legal. State may vary. AP is illegal for civilians. the below link is to the Federal US code. (I would have pasted it, but it is REAL long). AP ammo is specifically listed.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

See section 7 and 8

M14rick... I'm with you, don't figure I'm gonna need it ( I shoot an M1A also) To be honest, from my service days, vests are "bullet resistant" not proof. A Barnes XLC 150gr or lighter at 2750 or more fps will penetrate a vest (unplated).
 
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So, for example, this Garand clip of AP ammo offered on Gunbroker is not legal to be possessed by a civilian? http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=43978211

Since most all rifle rounds will penetrate body armor*, I though that the "ban" on AP ammo only applied to calibers for which a handgun was commercially available. AP is not defined in that section of the code.



* I understand that AP does not refer to body armor.
 
The code is below - it's specific to "manufacture" or "import" - I can't find anything prohibiting the possession of AP ammo in the Federal Code.

Here is the code -

(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to—
(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and
(C) any manufacture or importation for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General;
(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to—
(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;
(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting authorized by the Attorney General; and...

And this

5) any firearm or armor-piercing ammunition to any person unless the licensee notes in his records, required to be kept pursuant to section 923 of this chapter, the name, age, and place of residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of such person if the person is a corporation or other business entity.
Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), and (4) of this subsection shall not apply to transactions between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors. Paragraph (4) of this subsection shall not apply to a sale or delivery to any research organization designated by the Attorney General.
 
The law is clear on what is defined as AP ammo, there's no need to go a Charles Schumer inspired guessing game on what is or isn't AP.

Federal Code:
921(a)(17)(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means --

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

929(b)
LIST OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION (BANNED BY NAME):

KTW AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a green coating on the projectile)

ARCANE AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a pointed bronze or brass projectile)

THV AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a brass or bronze projectile and having a headstamp containing the letters SFM and THV)

CZECHOSLOVAKIAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) ammunition having an iron or steel core. (Identified by a cupronickel jacket and headstamp containing a triangle, star and dates 49, 50, 51, or 52. The bullet is attracted to a magnet)

GERMAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) having an iron or steel bullet core. (Original packaging is marked Pisolenpatronen 08 m.E. May have black colored bullet. This bullet is attracted to a magnet)

MSC AMMUNITION, Caliber .25. (Identified by a hollow point brass bullet. NOTE: MSC ammunition Caliber .25 identified by a hollow point copper bullet is not armor piercing)

BLACK STEEL ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

BLACK STEEL METAL PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP)

7.62mm NATO SLAP (identified by projectile having a plastic sabot around a hard penetrator. The penetrator protrudes above the sabot and is similar in appearance to a Remington accelerator cartridge)

PMC ULTRAMAG .38 Special caliber, constructed entirely of a brass type material, and plastic pusher disc located at the base of the projectile. NOTE: PMC ULTRAMAG 38J late production made of copper with lead alloy projectile is not armor piercing.

OMNISHOCK, a .38 Special cartridge with a lead bullet containing a mild steel core with a flattened head resembling a wad cutter. (NOTE: OMNISHOCK cartridges having a bullet with an aluminum core are not armor piercing.)

7.62x39mm with steel core. (NOTE: these projectiles have a steel core. Projectiles having a lead core with steel jacket or steel case are not armor piercing)

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CARTRIDGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION:

5.56MM (.223) SS109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

U.S. .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip.


Virginia Code:
§ 18.2-308.3. Use or attempted use of restricted ammunition in commission or attempted commission of crimes prohibited; penalty.


A. When used in this section:

"Restricted firearm ammunition" applies to bullets, projectiles or other types of ammunition that are: (i) coated with or contain, in whole or in part, polytetrafluorethylene or a similar product, (ii) commonly known as "KTW" bullets or "French Arcanes," or (iii) any cartridges containing bullets coated with a plastic substance with other than lead or lead alloy cores, jacketed bullets with other than lead or lead alloy cores, or cartridges of which the bullet itself is wholly comprised of a metal or metal alloy other than lead. This definition shall not be construed to include shotgun shells or solid plastic bullets.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly use or attempt to use restricted firearm ammunition while committing or attempting to commit a crime. Violation of this section shall constitute a separate and distinct felony and any person found guilty thereof shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

(1983, c. 602; 1988, c. 530.)
 
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I found this definition elsewhere:

The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."
 
Im still confused?

Thanks guys for your help. I have read some of the ATF documents posted as well. It just seems odd that you can buy AP ammo on gunbroker. I also found green tip 7.62, some kind of AP incendiary round. I dont know maybe its better to leave it alone. I just thought it would be fun when we are shooting up an old car or something. I also thought it only applied to pistol ammo.
 
My understanding is the existing or surplus AP ammo can still be bought, but it cannot be manufactured for civilian sale if it can be used in a handgun (which is true for most rifle ammo thanks to Thompson Contenders and others). The ammo you saw on gun broker is likely surplus 30.06 that you can still buy.

I do not know your state laws.

If I am wrong, someone please correct me.
 
But while I have no use for silly rules promulgated by any governmental authority, the plain fact is that at distances close enough to determine the target is a threat, 30 caliber ball ammo will walk through most vehicles. While it is nice to have, I won't be upset if I have none. Have you ever seen what a .243 bullet will do to a 1/4" mild steel plate? It just seems to melt through, not even shaking the 8" round plate hung on a cable.

What are you trying to say? That argument(I dont see a use for....) is the same argument gun grabbers use for outlawing semi-auto rifles, for example. I have seen 223 go through alot of mild steel plates, ok, no need for black tip. But lets say some guy is lucky enough to live out in the country and has an old bulldozer bucket or something with a little harder steel to shoot at for fun, dont you think he should have the right to have some fun with some steel core ammo?

Im not trying to start an argument either, but you should be upset with every INCREMENTAL step taken to strip you of your rights to further some politicians career. AP rifle ammo is no danger to society in reality, so it is a stupid law, whether it affects you or not.:)
 
Here's some info on the 7.62X39 "problem" -

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIL3.html

The BATF, Olympic Arms, and Chinese 7.62x39

[FAQ Maintainer: Note that that this article is strictly the opinion of Dean Speir, and does not necessarily represent my opinion. Olympic Arms has been given the chance to rebut and has thus far chosen not to.]
by Dean Speir ([email protected])

On 2 February 1994, there was issued an ATF encyclical placing 35 importers of "7.62 X 39mm steel core ammunition" and all Federal Firearms Licensees on immediate notice that those rounds were now considered "armor piercing."

Quoting ATF Director, John W. Magaw, as stating "...(t)hese bullets are designed, when used in handguns, to pose a life-threatening risk to all law enforcement officers," the notification stated:


"Recent production of handguns that are designed to fire 7.62 X 39mm steel core ammunition has resulted in the reclassification of that ammunition as armor piercing (which) can only be sold to law enforcement or governmental agencies. Prior to introduction of these handguns in the marketplace, 7.62 X 39mm ammunition was not considered armor piercing, because it was only used in rifles -- primarily SKS/AK rifles."
With this preemptive move, ATF struck a formidable blow at owners of between 7 and 8 million SKS rifles believed to be in this country, as well as those with AKs and sundry other shoulder-fired ordnance in that chambering. With a prime supply of "cheap ammo" suddenly gone, the cost of their shooting game had just gone up.

As it was with the majority of small arms ammunition in the post-Brady Law hording frenzy, 7.62 X 39mm was already in extremely short supply, and the cost of an 1,100 round case of even lead core, available from over-stocked distributors the summer of 1993 at $90/case, was suddenly selling in the $149 to $209 range... when it could be found!

Ironically, the importation price of the restricted steel core ammunition was actually three dollars per case less expensive than the lead fodder from Norinco via China Sports, the country's largest importer of 7.62 X 39mm.


"You're not going to see numbers like those (of last year) again," one Northeastern distributor said at the time. "The Chinese are really putting it to us now, probably to make up for the loss of their other market" (for steel core product).
An extensive investigation behind ATF's action revealed that the balloon went up in December 1993 when The Shotgun News ran Olympic Arms' advertising to promote their model OA-93 ("a true AR-15 pistol") chambered in 7.62 X 39mm, the announcement of which sent at least two importers scrambling to "buy" the rights to any such handgun to protect their future ammo market. Only the Washington-based gun-maker seemed not to have understood the far-reaching implications of their controversial product or anticipated any negative reaction.

After The Shotgun News advertisement, Bob Schuetz, President of Olympic Arms, was warned by both J.D. Jones and Century International Arms (importer of large quantities of the cheap, steel core 7.62 X 39mm ammo) that his promotion of a 7.62 X 39mm "pistol" would probably bring the ATF down on the Chinese steel-core rounds. Schuetz, however, went forward with his OA-93.

(Public Law 99-408 of 1986, the infamous "cop killer bullet" legislation, now memorialized as Section 921(a)(17)(b), reads "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely ... of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium." Ammunition intended for guns fired from the shoulder has traditionally been exempt if there are no production handguns in that chambering.)


"I'm not in the ammunition business," Olympic Arms Schuetz told the author in one of two interviews at that time. "I wasn't aware that there was a problem. Nobody told me that this was a situation, and by the time I found out, it was too late. I'm 65 years old, I go to church every Sunday, and I feel good about myself. If people are so ignorant as to blame me for what's happened, that's asinine and there's nothing I can do about it. Now when people send me letters on this I just ignore it. What do you want me to do?"
As stated, however, two different concerns HAD contacted Olympic Arms about the potential problem 1-1/2 months before ATF issued its infamous memo. Additionally, the author had discussed the matter with Schuetz in a face-to-face at SHOT Show '94.

However, as dark as the situation appeared for AK and SKS owners, there could have been, in fact, a way to "squeeze the toothpaste back into the tube," for an examination of the events surrounding the government's decision reveals that ATF may have yanked the trigger on this one. And the bureaucrat on point for the government was a name well-known to many Class 3 licensees: Terry L. Cates, Chief of ATF's Firearms and Explosives Division.


"The gun we're talking about is the Olympic Arms OA-93," Cates told the author ten days after the notification was issued. "It was available for sale at their SHOT Show booth... I have their sales material, price lists and brochures. My understanding is that what we have is sufficient to determine that such a firearm has been introduced into commerce. After I consulted with Ed Owen, Chief of (ATF) Firearms Technology, a briefing paper was sent to the Director, who made the ultimate decision."
Pressed on the matter of actual 7.62 X 39mm handguns in commercial distribution, Cates stated that ATF files indicated that Olympic Arms had produced it's first OA-93, serial number "003," in March of 1993, and that five of the guns had been sold and shipped.


"We haven't sold any OA-93s in 7.62 X 39mm," Bob Schuetz averred in a second interview. "I think we had six that we played with, but the crazy thing is that we just haven't sold any. We've sold quite a number of the (5.56mm) OA-93s... we're putting 25 of those together each week."
A second gun-maker, Rocky Mountain Arms of Longmont, CO, also had a Colt's/Stoner-pattern .30 caliber pistol with an "X" serial number on display at SHOT Show. The "Komrade," a prototype, according to owner Bob Ford, was immediately withdrawn from RMA's marketing plans when Ford was told by ATF (at the same 1994 SHOT Show) that the first one of those to "hit the shipping dock" would cause the proscription of steel core 7.62 X 39mm.

In a subsequent interview, Cates thought that there was yet another company, Mars Imports of Wichita Falls, Texas, who has made these guns, which fact the author was later able to document in an interview with one of Mars' principals, but Cates was unable to explain why ATF had never moved on the steel core 7.62 X 39mm based on the existence of the Mars Imports "pistol" in that cambering. (One possibility is that at the time Mars was in operation in Texas, there was a Texan in the White House who was much more sympathetic to gun owners than his successor from Arkansas.)

There were also some 200 AK 47 type pistols, "garage guns," built on a B-West AK action. When the author discussed the situation with B-West, it was learned that when ATF got around, _circa_ 1991, to figuring out that their receivers were an "end run" against the 1989 George Bush/William Bennett semiauto moratorium, they said "No more!" and B-West quietly complied.

The fact remains, however, that ATF never moved on the steel core Chinese ammunition until they saw the OA-93 at the SHOT Show in Dallas in 1994.


"We don't believe that it matters one iota whether any guns were actually sold," Cates reiterated after checking with ATF legal counsel. "We believe that there is more than sufficient cause to act as we did based on Olympic Arms' offering for sale."
But when asked what if ATF's actions had been based on wholly erroneous information and assumptions, Cates carefully phrased his response:


"We might rescind our decision if Olympic Arms managed to take all their OA-93s back," he suggested, giving himself an "out" while not acknowledging any possible ATF error.
Much later two different individuals in the employ of Olympic Arms vociferously disputed ATF's initial assumption.


"Check the ATF records and/or bound books. Only six PROTOTYPES were made by Olympic Arms at the time of the ammo ban announcement by ATF and NONE HAD BEEN SOLD," an internet gadfly posting as "Olysman" insisted in August 1996.
Throughout the February 1994 interviews, however, Schuetz had insisted that there were only in existence at that time five Models OA-93, a brainchild of his son Brian's, and that they could account for every single one of them "in-house" at that time.

In early Summer 1994 OA Vice-President Bruce Bell called the author to state that there were actually seven .30 caliber OA-93s in existence, and that only ONE had actually ever left their facility... and that to gunwriter Dick Metcalf, and that they by then had it back in their possession.

An ATF reversal of a Cates edict would not be without precedent according to one Class 3 licensee long familiar with the Government regulator's career.


"Terry Cates is a loose cannon," said the author's source. "He's known for making wild decisions off the top of his head and then others in ATF would have to come along and rescind the errant decision."
Cates, amidst 1986's furious pre-May 19th activity, made an incorrect determination concerning AK parts kits and what constituted a "machine gun."


"After ruling that AK 'drop-in' full auto sears were legal," the Class 3 dealer related, "ATF realized that a hole had to be drilled in the receiver, and that all the guns which had been so converted were now contraband and subject to confiscation. When a huge cry went up from gun owners affected by Cates' revision, ATF backed off and seems to have informally 'grandfathered' those guns while prohibiting further conversions."
While there was once hope that ATF might fully review the steel core issue and perhaps reverse themselves, it required concerted action from companies and individuals adversely affected by the February 1994 edict, maybe even legal action.


"There was absolutely no due process afforded anyone in this matter," an attorney with extensive knowledge of federal firearms law and the inner workings of ATF told the author on condition of anonymity. "It shows us exactly how ATF has changed... In the old days, under either (Stephen) Higgins or (Rex) Davis, there probably would have been a 90-day notice given that this edict was coming. You have to remember that their new head guy (Magaw) came over from the Secret Service and the types of people they go after, counterfeiters, don't have licenses. They may have to be sued before they'll back off on this."
That was certainly the case, since, given the funds ATF expended to make concerned parties aware of their restriction, they were loathe to voluntarily withdraw what was clearly an improperly investigated restriction.

On the contentious issue of culpability for the loss of the "cheap" 7.62 X 39mm ammo, the real villain here was ATF's Terry Cates, probably looking to curry favor with his new boss Magaw and improve his lot within the agency.

But in the author's opinion Bob Schuetz must accept the responsibility for being stubborn, short-sighted, and insensitive to the realities of firearms commerce. He was informed of the implications of his actions, had the opportunity to address the problem before SHOT Show '94. then had another opportunity to redress the wrong-headed ATF action, and elected not to do so in either instance.

After ATF's precipitous and preemptive action of February 1994, Olympic Arms could and should have gone to the mat with ATF on this matter. There would have been plenty of support from others in the firearms community who were adversely affected by the 7.62 X 39mm ammo proscription.

Why they did not is known best to Schuetz, but as he probably still goes to church on Sunday and still feels good about himself, clearly it was not one of his priorities.
 
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