Is/are there max velocities for cast bullets?

[Freedom Hugger]

I just started reloading .44 mag and am using what was available. Which was Alliant Power Pro 330 mp powder, CCI large magnum pistol primers and cast 240 grain bullets. The loading data on Alliants website said 25 grains of powder with a 240 grain bullet will have a velocity of 1570 fps. Will this velocity with cast bullets cause "leading" in my barrel? Should I consider using the cast bullets for 44 special loads instead?

Another question is Alliant's data specifies a standard, not a magnum primer; it is a spherical powder and I had read that magnum primers should be used with spherical powder, so I bought magnum primers. Should I take the rounds that I have reloaded apart and use standard primers?

Thanks for any help to a newbie

 

[USSR]

Freedom Hugger,

A couple of things: First, the load data you are looking at is not for a cast bullet. Cast bullets typically use less powder. Second, the 25 grain load you mentioned is the Max load. Good reloading practice requires that you start out with less than a published Max load and work your up towards it while looking for high pressure signs. This is ESPECIALLY true when deviating from the components used in the published data. So, yes, you should take the loads apart and start lower.

Don

 

[sexybeast]

A long time ago I experimented with powerful .44mag loads and it was discouraging. I learned alot about lead though. I have read others saying that you can push lead up past 1250fps, I have never been able to without leading unless I use a gas check. 1100fps is usually the threshold for no leading. I was using a factory crimp die at the time and this I have found out is detramental for using lead.
The powder I was using was Unique and I did not keep records at the time so I don't have load data.
With lead as written above you should start low and work up. Put them on paper and see when the group starts to spread out. Never heard of Pro 330 powder, obviously never used it so no help or advice there.

 

[Freedom Hugger]

Thanks for the replies. First, let me correct the powder name, it is Alliant Power Pro 300 (not 330) MP. The reason I didn't start lower is that their loading data only listed one charge weight, and said that data should be followed exactly. I didn't know if there was any danger in going lower than published. As I said, I'm new at this, so I appreciate any help and suggestions. I guess I will look/wait for jacketed bullets.

So now I have 500 240 grain lead SWC bullets. I guess I will look into loading some 44 specials. Is there anything I need to be aware of firing specials in a magnum pistol?

Thank you for your support.

 

[Sam1911]

It isn't a question of velocity so much as pressure.

Brad has a great write-up on this at the Missouri Bullet Co. web site: http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

 

[Pilot]

Thanks for the replies. First, let me correct the powder name, it is Alliant Power Pro 300 (not 330) MP. The reason I didn't start lower is that their loading data only listed one charge weight, and said that data should be followed exactly. I didn't know if there was any danger in going lower than published. As I said, I'm new at this, so I appreciate any help and suggestions. I guess I will look/wait for jacketed bullets.

So now I have 500 240 grain lead SWC bullets. I guess I will look into loading some 44 specials. Is there anything I need to be aware of firing specials in a magnum pistol?

Thank you for your support.

You can shoot .44 Specials in a .44 Magnum just fine. In fact many reloaders do that as full .44 Mag can be unpleasant to some if shooting a lot.

I keep my hard cast lead loads under 1,000 FPS and don't get leading.

 

[USSR]

How fast you can drive a cast bullet is primarily determined by 3 things: the alloy used; a properly sized bullet; and a good lube. I regularly shoot non-gaschecked lead bullets at 1800fps without leading in my .30 Carbine.

Don

 

[grubbylabs]

You need to match the bullet to what you are doing with it as in size and how hard it is, you can learn a lot about shooting cast by searching and reading the castboolits forum, their is more info their than you can shake a stick at.

I had a 444 that I was able to shoot a 270 grain bullet at 2100 fps with a gas check and it shot very well. In fact the friend that I sold the gun to still uses the load and is very happy with it.

I only use magnum primers no matter what I load. If you start below max (10% below is the accepted norm) and work up your load you should be fine. I have found that cast bullets usually perform quite well some where between starting and the mid range for data for jacketed bullets. Depending on how well the cast bullets fit your gun and how hard they are dictates how hard you can drive them. I would be surprised if you could drive them and max loading without some negative, either accuracy or leading.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

One problem that I see is Alliant doesn't list any loads with 300 MP for lead bullets. If someone has a source for this bullet/load combination, great. If not, try contacting Alliant and get their recommendation.

 

[buck460XVR]

Thanks for the replies. First, let me correct the powder name, it is Alliant Power Pro 300 (not 330) MP. The reason I didn't start lower is that their loading data only listed one charge weight, and said that data should be followed exactly.

If you read the terms of agreement before they allowed you to get to the online guide, you would have noticed this statement.....


REDUCE RIFLE AND HANDGUN CHARGE WEIGHTS BY 10% TO ESTABLISH A STARTING LOAD.

 

[243winxb]

Cast data here http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/357-44_Bain_Davis/Handloader_274_Oct_2011.pdf But do gun writer really test the loads??

 

[jlucke69]

Power Pro and cast

I reserve my PP for jacketed. It performs similar to H110. These powders are meant to be high velocity loads and the powder has a very narrow load margin. If you can find one, I would recommend a middle of the road powder like Unique or Universal (just ones I am familiar with, but there are plenty out there.) These powders can be loaded down to 44 special speeds, or up to mid level 44 magnum + speeds. As for the cast bullets, use them in the magnums, just change the powders. This will give you middle of the road, better that 44 specials, not as fast as jacketed. Depending on what they are and the brinell rating, you can drive them fairly fast. Most of my plinking rounds are mid level cast due to cost. Good luck

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said above, when a load data source lists only 1 charge weight it's usually the Max charge weight and in most cases should be reduced by 10% to establish the starting charge weight. You should always use starting charge weights when working up new loads. Also like said above, the data you used was for jacketed bullets so most likely your charge is way over the Max charge recommended for lead bullets. I would not fire those cartridges.

I suggest you read the most current edition of the ABC's of reloading or at the very least buy a printed load manual and read the articles instead of only using the load data. Reloading is very safe if you follow the rules, if not it can be very dangerous!

 

[Jlr2267]

If it is MBC hardcast (18 BHN), yes, you can load them hot (I do regularly). In fact, you may have more leading issues by pushing them too slow (there is a write-up on this very subject on MBC's website).

That said, I know from personal experience that 25gr of 300-MP under a 240gr SWC is a handful. I ended up at 23gr, and this is from a 5.5" Redhawk (Winchester primers).

I started around 21-22gr with standard primer and worked up in 1/2 gr increments. As always, inspect brass, take notes, etc. If you can chrono, even better. Look for leading as you go.

Make sure you get a good crimp with hot loads like this.

I happen to like this particular powder with hardcast SWC. Herco is also good for slightly tamer loads with this same bullet.

 

[Freedom Hugger]

If you read the terms of agreement before they allowed you to get to the online guide, you would have noticed this statement.....


REDUCE RIFLE AND HANDGUN CHARGE WEIGHTS BY 10% TO ESTABLISH A STARTING LOAD.

You are correct, I should have read that page more closely, thanks.

 

[flipajig]

I have found two powders that work for me and they are Win 231 or HP-38 they are the. Same powders And Aliant 2400. HP-38 for light loads and the 2400 for the heavy ones one thing you have to watch and be aware of is a double charge useing a fast burning pistol powder in a large volume case like the 44 mag. I don't shoot specials in mine I use mag brass all the time. Most of my shooting is with a mag load my 44 is my carry gun in the hills and I shoot it a lot.
Flip

 

[zxcvbob]

I regularly shoot non-gaschecked lead bullets at 1800fps without leading in my .30 Carbine.

I've shot them at just over 1700 from a revolver without leading. (I didn't expect that)

 

[wgaynor]

This would be a great reason to buy a cast bullet specific manual. Dispel the myths of shooting cast bullets and the causes of leading.

 

[41 Mag]

A couple of other powders which might work for you as well are, AA7 or 9, HS-6, 2400, Unique, or Universal.

There are other powders which will get you into the WHO HA range but those above have worked for me in several different calibers pushing various cast bullet weights.

With cast I am not as worried about hitting the highest velocities with my loads as I am the most accurate. What you have to realize about lead bullets is that the do not need top end velocity to expand the jackets, or to preform well in the penetration dept. Usually they will penetrate well past a jacketed load at equal pressures simply because it usually takes more pressure to drive the jacketed out the barrel than the slicker lead bullet. So if your loading 240gr jacketed at 30K verses the same weight cast, your not only going to usually have more velocity from the cast but more expansion and/or penetration.

When loading cast you have to go by a different set of rules and conditions. These are not set in stone but usually give better results with less fuss and muss if you take a little time to figure them out.

I have hit 1350fps from my 41 and 44 using my own cast loads with no GC's and at 50yds they will usually will come very close if not shoot lenght wise completely through a filled 5 gallon bucket of the sandy soil we have up at the farm.

Find an accurate load and go with it.

 

[RealGun]

Dispel the myths of shooting cast bullets and the causes of leading.

What do you mean here? At some point in higher velocity, cast bullets need gas checks.

 

[USSR]

Quote:
Dispel the myths of shooting cast bullets and the causes of leading.

What do you mean here? At some point in higher velocity, cast bullets need gas checks.

All we are saying is, when attention is paid to a few things, non-gaschecked bullets can be driven at a higher velocity than is commonly thought.

Don

 

[Sam1911]

"Dispelling myths" might be too strong a way to say it, but developing a more complete understanding of all the factors in play and how to balance them for success might be a great way to put it.

Reading Brad's technical page I linked to above would be a great start.

It might be simple to say that at some velocity you'll need to use gas checks, but it would be more complete to say that at some pressure level you'll exceed the available bullet hardness, even if the bullet/bore fit is optimal. But balancing pressure with hardness properly, with well fit bullets, will let you go a lot faster than most folks have experienced.

 

[wgaynor]

As for the dispelling the myths, I was referring to the belief that leading is caused only by velocity when in fact it is caused by many factors. Pressure, bullet size/bore size, alloy mix, and many others.

Another myth is that Marlin Micro-Groove barrels don't shoot cast bullets well and that cast bullets cannot be driven past 1500 fps without a gas check. The key to cast bullets is attention to detail, a bit of OCD in your behavioral traits, and time to work up loads in small increments until you get the results you desire. Having a mentor helps.

With certain bullet rifle/pistol combos, I find that working up a load can take longer, but persistence pays off.

And don't forget the myth that merely looking at lead will kill you (sarcasm). Don't eat or smoke while handling lead, wash your hands, don't let kids handle it, and if casting, open a window and use fans to blow the vapors outside or cast outside.

Perhaps my comment of dispelling myths was too blunt, but I've read threads on here where people do hold these myths to be true.

 

[wgaynor]

I cast a 240 grain semi wad cutter (plain base) for my .44 mag and use Industrial Pistol Powder, Unique, and sr756 for my powders. I've found the .44 mag to be the easiest to cast bullet to load for. Seems that I can push that pullet up to 1500 fps without issue and it likes those three powders equally. I make sure my bullet is pretty fat though and use a homemade lube (beeswax, petroleum jelly, and crayons for coloring).

 

[rclark]

I've pushed 240g SWC to 1333fps (high as my testing went) with no leading in 'my' .44 Mag revolvers. These were 15 BHN bullets too, so not extra hard. So, if there is a max velocity ... I haven't found it yet. There is a simple rule of thumb formula for matching hardness to pressure : BHN = psi / 1400 . Allows the bullet to obturate properly. Of course there are other factors that contribute to leading too (forcing cone, tight throats, barrel constrictions, etc.). Lots have been written on this subject elsewhere. All I shoot is lead bullets.