Is Islam really a violent religion?

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Perhaps it's the attempt to be "morally better" that is, paradoxically, the root of the problem. Enlightened self-interest, under the rule of law, with reasonable economic fair play, produces a more morally advanced society than religions, which tend to be exclusionary and built on unreason. Isn't that what we have finally learned about a few millennia of killing each other and imposing our wills on others? If you want to see the "earthly paradise," as it really is, go hang out at Costco, my friends. You'll see happy consumers and kids stuffing themselves with bargain-priced pizza, hot dogs, and chicken bakes. Add a Coke and it doesn't get any better than this. As for the next life I can't say, but I'll let ya know, God willing.:D
 
2dogs,

Let's see- how would all this hand wringing have gone on in WWII?

Um, most German's are peace loving folks. We can't attack all German's just because of the actions of some extremist Nazi's.

...

Yep, we'd have been in real good shape now, wouldn't we?

:rolleyes:

I assume you think "Eisenhower" is an Irish name? :scrutiny:
 
No... I'm, comparing the actions of the Germans against the actions of the Japanese in the last 100 (maybe 110) years which should be the height of each nations civility if they are both progessing as a civilized nations should.

Are you saying that in 1941, Americans had the occupation of China to look at but nothing similar to look at in then-recent German history from 1831 to 1941 (the 110 years prior to the period we are discussing ... both have been downright pacifist from 1945 to 2003, but obviously that could not affect the attitudes of Americans in 1941)? :)

Or more to the point, are you saying that the occupation of China was the reason Americans rounded up Japanese? :)

+++++++
And just for laughs:

"The German culture is one which tells you to send your son to kill the Jews.
The American culture is one which gives your son liberty."
Bobo, Attorney General John Ashcroft's cat
 
Do you honestly think that if the Germans had launched a sneak attack on, say, Norfolk Va., that we'd have rounded up citizens of German decent and put them in concentration camps?

Uh, well yes.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

CRT

TUESDAY, MARCH 27, 2001

(202) 514-2008

WWW.USDOJ.GOV

TDD (202) 514-1888



JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO REVIEW THE TREATMENT OF

ITALIAN AMERICANS DURING WORLD WAR II



WASHINGTON, D.C. - The Justice Department is seeking information concerning the treatment of Italian Americans by the United States during World War II.

The Wartime Violation of Italian American Civil Liberties Act of 2000 directs the Attorney General to conduct a comprehensive review of the treatment of Italian Americans by the federal government, and to report to Congress no later than November 7, 2001. This report will document actions taken by the United States against Italian Americans including arrests, roundups, internments, raids on private homes, confiscation and seizure of property, exclusion orders, and other restrictions. The Justice Department report will cover the period between September 1939 and December 1945.

In the Act, Congress found that the United States restricted the freedom of more than 600,000 Italian-born immigrants during World War II. More than 10,000 Italian Americans living in the West Coast were forced to leave their homes and were prohibited from entering and fishing in coastal zones, while more than 50,000 were subject to curfews. In some cases, the United States confiscated the boats of Italian-American fishermen, and prohibited Italian Americans from working on railroads in certain zones.

"The story of the treatment of Italian Americans during World War II needs to be told, to remember those whose freedoms were violated and to prevent such injustice in the future," said William Yeomans, Acting Assistant Attorney General of the Civil Rights Division.

The report will include information such as the names of Italian Americans who were arrested following the attack on Pearl Harbor, a list of ports from which Italian Americans were restricted, and documentation of federal raids on the homes of Italian Americans.

Individuals who have specific knowledge of incidents affecting Italian Americans during World War II should contact the Civil Rights Division by email at [email protected], or by writing to:

Wartime Violation of Italian American Civil Liberties


Civil Rights Division

Unites States Department of Justice
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2001/March/124cr.htm



Or this:

German- and Italian-American Internment during WWll
Two New York representatives and a senator introduce bills that call for the declassification of documents on the wartime internment and for a government study "detailing injustices suffered by Italian-Americans during World War II and a formal acknowledgment of such injustices by the president."
This raises the question: "When will German-Americans also act?"



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

August 11, 1997


After Silence, Italians Recall the Internment
Missoula, Mont.
By JAMES BROOKE

MISSOULA, Mont. -- For decades, Italian immigrant families who lived through World War II in the United States did not want to talk about the curfews, confiscations of fishing boats, forced moves from seacoast towns, police searches of their homes and internments here at Fort Missoula. But researchers are fleshing out this obscure footnote to American history: the treatment of 600,000 Italian citizens in the United States who were classified as "enemy aliens" after World War II began. And that is stirring memories among those who lived through it.

In 1942, when this old frontier Army post served as one of the nation's largest internment camps, the most widely spoken language at the post was not Japanese or English, but Italian. One of the internees was Alfredo Cipolato, a native Venetian who went from a job as a waiter at the Italian Pavilion of the 1939 World's Fair in New York to a barracks bunk in this once-remote town in western Montana.

"One day I come home," said Cipolato, now an American citizen living here, "the FBI are there, and they just put me in jail."

In the recent past, fading family memories have been jogged by a documentary film, "Bella Vista," a book, "An Alien Place," by Carol Bulger Van Valkenburg, and an exhibit that has toured 21 American cities and is expected to go to Washington in September.

According to the latest research, dozens of Italians lost their fishing boats and hundreds more -- largely bakers, restaurant workers and garbage men -- had to give up jobs because of curfews. About 1,600 Italian citizens were interned, all of them here, and about 10,000 Italian-Americans were forced to move from their houses in California coastal communities to inland homes.

And the 600,000 legal Italian immigrants who had not become U.S. citizens were put under travel restrictions. Dozens of American citizens of Italian origin who had shown sympathy for Mussolini were temporarily banished from California.

"The majority of Italian-Americans still don't know that this happened," said Lawrence DiStasi, director of the traveling exhibit, "Storia Segreta," or Secret History. "There are people who come to our exhibit who suddenly remember that it happened in their families, too.

The Italian immigrants were caught up, to a milder degree, in the hysteria that swept the West Coast after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941. While all the interned Italians were citizens of Italy, about two-thirds of the interned Japanese were American citizens. The anti-Japanese measures lasted the length of the war, while the anti-Italian restrictions mostly ended after less than a year.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About 110,000 Japanese immigrants and Japanese-Americans were interned in a network of camps, including Fort Missoula. In this sweep of people suspected of sympathy with enemies of the United States, 10,905 Germans and German-Americans as well as a few Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians and Romanians were interned.

The U.S. government apologized in 1988 to the Japanese-Americans interned during World War II and started paying reparations of $20,000 each to survivors.

"My government has apologized to the Japanese nationals. Where is the apology to me?" asked Art Jacobs, a Brooklyn native who at the age of 12 was interned with his father, a legal resident from Germany, at a camp in Crystal City, Texas. Jacobs, a retired U.S. Air Force major, said that German-American associations were generally silent about the internment for fear of dredging up old emotions linking Germans and Nazis.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Growing interest among the nation's Italian-Americans, now estimated at 15 million, prompted two New York representatives and a senator to introduce bills last month that call for the declassification of documents on the wartime internment and for a government study "detailing injustices suffered by Italian- Americans during World War II and a formal acknowledgment of such injustices by the president."

The chief sponsor of the House bill is Rep. Rick Lazio, a Republican of New York. On the Senate side, the chief sponsor is Alfonse D'Amato, also a Republican of New York.

At the start of the war, Italian-Americans represented this nation's largest group of foreign-born residents. There were five million of them, and all but the 600,000 had become citizens. Curfews and confiscations were imposed on members of this group within hours after Pearl Harbor, even before war was declared on Italy.

With no evidence of Italian sabotage or spying, the measures came to be seen as counterproductive because President Franklin D. Roosevelt was seeking the full support of Italian-Americans for the invasion of Italy. The curfews were lifted in October 1942, on Columbus Day. The invasion of Italy took place in July 1943.

Although fishing was considered a national priority for the war effort, security restrictions required dozens of Italian-American fishermen, about 90 percent of San Francisco's fleet, to surrender their boats to the Coast Guard.

Umberto Benedetti, 74, a Missoula resident who was interned here in May 1941 after the Italian cruise ship that he was working on was impounded in then Panama Canal, said: "The fishermen lost a lot of money. They should get something."

The police swept through Italian-American neighborhoods in many cities, seizing from Italian citizens firearms, radios, cameras and flashlights that could be used as signaling devices. For much of 1942, most of the 600,000 Italians were not allowed to travel five miles from their homes without police permission. That restriction kept a San Francisco man, Giuseppe DiMaggio, from visiting a wharf restaurant owned by his son, Joe, the baseball legend.

About 2,000 Italians were forced to move from Pittsburg, a town on San Francisco Bay. Joe Aiello, a resident of the United States for 56 years but an Italian citizen, left his home in a wheelchair. Another, Placido Abono, 97, was moved out on a stretcher.

Relocation orders or detention orders frequently hit people whose sons were in the U.S. military. In World War II, about 500,000 Italian-Americans served in the Armed Forces.

Rosina Trovato, classified as an enemy alien and living in Monterey, Calif., received a notice to evacuate her home on the same day that she learned that her son and a nephew had gone down with the U.S.S. Arizona in Pearl Harbor. Jerre Mangione, a 75-year-old Italian citizen, was released from detention on the day that officials learned that his son had been killed in a bombing run over Italy.

In the hunt for Fascists, Italian language schools and newspapers were closed in northern California.

"There hasn't been any indication that any of these enemy aliens were engaged in any treasonous activities whatsoever," said Rep. Eliot L. Engel, a New York Democrat who is a cosponsor of the legislation to declassify documents.

Of the roughly 2,000 Italians living in the United States who were detained for questioning after Pearl Harbor, only 300 were deemed to be sufficient security risks for confinement in Fort Missoula. About 1,300 sailors and other Italian visitors had been detained before Pearl Harbor.

Once at Missoula, the Italians divided along generational lines. The older men, generally long-term residents of the United States, were bitter about being torn away from their families.

But the younger men, largely sailors from 28 Italian ships impounded in American ports in the spring of 1941, largely saw "Campo Missoula" as a pleasant and safe place to sit out the war, said the two former internees interviewed here.

"Bella Vista," or "Beautiful View," was the nickname given to this post, sitting at a bend on the Bitterroot River, where wildflowers carpet meadows that stretch toward snow-capped mountains. The center- piece was a new recreation hall designed by the architects of Yellowstone Park's Old Faithful Inn.

About 100 internees were entertainers -- largely musicians, singers, dancers and choreographers from the luxury cruise ship that was caught in the Panama Canal.

"We had a regular theater -- a comedy one week, an opera the next," said Alfredo Cipolato, who met his future wife, Ann D'Orazi, while singing in a church choir in Missoula.

While beef, sugar and butter were rationed in Missoula, these staples were plentiful at the camp, Cipolato recalled. Food, not politics, sparked one of the few disturbances among detainees, the "olive oil riot."

Presented with beef fat for frying, an outraged Italian cook smacked the American supplier across the face. A patrol car raced to the scene, but one of the occupants accidentally set off a smoke grenade inside the car. In the excitement, a guard in a watchtower shot himself in the foot.

Next year, the Historical Museum at Fort Missoula plans to open a recently restored wooden barracks here with permanent exhibits about the Japanese and Italian internment here.

Memories are largely benign for the half-dozen former Italian seamen who stayed on in Montana, Idaho and the State of Washington.

"I lost three years of my life," said Cipolato, who at 84 enjoys the company here of his five children and seven grandchildren. "But if they had sent me back to Italy, I might be dead. I could have ended up in the Italian Army."

http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/itintern.htm
 
2dogs,

Respectfully, you should re-read your article if you intend to use it as "proof".

The question stated: "...rounded up citizens of German decent and put them in concentration camps?", not "...subject non-citizen German immigrants to curfews".

Who d'you think would round up "Citizens of German decent", anyway? Where would you put the entire populations of Wisconsin, northern Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and western Pennsylvania? :confused:


BTW: My favorite line from the article is ""There are people who come to our exhibit who suddenly remember that it happened in their families, too." (Italics mine...) With visions of lawsuits dancing in their heads, no doubt. God, what a friggin' culture of victimhood we've created.
 
This report will document actions taken by the United States against Italian Americans including arrests, roundups, internments, raids on private homes, confiscation and seizure of property, exclusion orders

Sorry, somehow I thought "Italian Americans" meant that they were "Italian Americans". I'll try to be more careful.:rolleyes:

Anyway, Italian Americans, German Americans- or immigrants- I think most folks will get the point.:)
 
Relatively civil thread considering we're all playing the ultimate issue of issues.

I'm religious (catholic, at least that's the brand of holy water they tried to drown me in as a baby), but more in a private manner.

In my view Religion is a TOOL. Longeyes hit upon this in an earlier posting on this thread. It is neither evil or good. It leans perhaps more to good than evil at best.

The primary purpose of religion - a set of rules for a society to live by - from which we derive our common law from.

If we look at Jewish Kosher laws - it's a lot about safe food handling - before modern science expanded our capabilities in this field.

Some inherently evil people see religion as a TOOL to spread their twisted view of the world - to dominate others. Other inherently good people see religion as a TOOL to spread their twisted view of the world in helping others (some times to help themselves, to help others while not helping themselves). Even good religion can be used to dominate people.

Even within the TOOL of a single Religion there are different views. All three major Judeo-Christian-Islamic branches are sects that even branch down further and have killed each other over the centuries. Christians broken down in to Catholic and Protestant have killed each other for centuries. Look at Islam which has 2 major branches itself that kill each other. Seems to me they can be equally violent depending upon the drivers.

And I have not even touch on Hindusim which almost 1 Billion people follow. They have done to the Muslims what we accuse Muslim doing to Jews.

So, no, Islam is not any more or less violent a religion than the other religions in the world.
 
"Likewise, violence in the name of spreading Buddhism is absolutely nonsensical- Buddha himself told potential
followers to think through his teachings for themselves before joining his followers. The first of the five precepts of
the lay Buddhist is to refrain from destroying a living creature. The problems in South Asia where Buddhists have
violated that teaching result more from populations of different religions competing for the same land/resources
than from thelogical disputes."

Very perceptive, P35, and spot on.

Religion is often the convenient crutch used to justify very corporeal desires.

The so-called religious problems between the Jews and Muslims? Nothing more than a war for land.
 
Germany was a state that was actively invading the territories rightfully belonging to its neighbors.

That's true- I guess just going into other countries and killing the people and destroying the infrastructure and economy doesn't count- it's a bit, oh friendlier.

Or maybe it depends on your definition of invasion.
 
2dogs,

Here's the line from your own source:

this obscure footnote to American history: the treatment of 600,000 Italian citizens in the United States who were classified as "enemy aliens" after World War II began.

Non-citizen immigrants from another country who we are at war with are referred to as "enemy aliens".

We rounded up or followed citizens of the nation of Germany here in the US. We made a German-American the commanding general of SHAEF (and later elected him president), so obviously there's kind of a difference.
 
Do you honestly think that if the Germans had launched a sneak attack on, say, Norfolk Va., that we'd have rounded up citizens of German decent and put them in concentration camps?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Given the numbers of German descendents in this nation, no. But there again, the numbers would have made it impossible to achieve, so that would also argue against an interpretation of racism."


Actually, such plans were floated, for the internment of recently emigrated (I believe since 1900 or 1920, can't remember which) Germans and Italians, even those Germans and Italians who had become citizens of the United States.

They were knocked down fairly quickly, but the internment of Japanese Americans allowed to go forward.

No matter how you cut it, though, internment had a LOT to do with racism.

Viewing some of the war-time cartoons coming out of Warner Brothers is a good indication of how many in the United States felt at the time.
 
To summarize:
  • People can be violent.
  • People united by a common faith can be more violent.
  • People united by common politics can be more violent.
Conclusion:
Separation of faith and politics helps counterbalance the violence.

Solution:
The genius behind the U.S. Constitution. The First Amendment (freedom of speech AND religion) defended by the Second (right to keep and bear arms.)

God bless America. (Because I can say that but don't have to.)

Larry
 
Exactly Tamara, something like a third of the soldiers who fought for the US in WWII were of german descent. It was not unheard of for some US soldiers to speak fluent german because their parents were german immigrants.

Back to Islam:

Superficially Islam, Judaism, and Christianity have the same god and similar systems, but it is superficial. The character of the Allah is very different from the character of Yahweh or Christ, and the theology is remarkably different.

Even in the Old Testament, Yahweh is not a god of works. Yahweh wants people to freely conform their souls to his, Allah wants them to conform their actions to his desires. A paraphrase of the prophets in the Old Testament: "Your hands and lips do what is right, but your hearts are far from me."

Islam has 5 commandments all of which are actions, Judeo-Christianity has 2 "love god" and "love your neighbor".

Yahweh is definitely right and just. He is the true embodiment of these qualities. Allah simply does these things because it is his wish. Allah does good, but has the potential for evil. Yahweh is good.

As for peace...

Those that say Mohammed was a fundamentally peaceful guy need to read some Islamic History. Mohammed lead the first jihad against Mecca. He has people assassinated out of expedience.

The passages in the Koran are roughly chronological. The early passages are peaceful and tolerant because at the time Mohammed was peaceful and tolerant. The later passages are not because the deal with when Mohammed was expanding Islam by sword. The moderate muslims accentuate the early parts. Hardline muslims accentuate the later parts.

Mohammed was also ruler in a way that Christ rejected. This set a precedence for religious political rulers which is still being followed today in Iran. On the other hand the Sunnis do have a cultural basis for moderation of this because they basically elected the Caliph instead of passing the position down hereditarily.
 
2Dogs,

Your analogy is still incredibly flawed.

Germany is a specific state, with well recognized national boundaries. It's a tangible, specific, place.

Islam is a religion, practiced in nations that are hostile to the United States, nations that are ambivilent to the US, and those that are openly friendly towards the United States.

Germany in World War II acted not out of religious convictions, but out of nationalistic convictions.

In the same sense, the Gulf War in 1991 was not a war against Islam, even though Iraq is virtually 100% Muslim. It was a war to eject the forces of one nation from another.

Attempting to equate the nationalism of Germany in 1941 with the situation with Islam as it exists today doesn't work.
 
About 110,000 Japanese immigrants and Japanese-Americans were interned in a network of camps, including Fort Missoula. In this sweep of people suspected of sympathy with enemies of the United States, 10,905 Germans and German-Americans as well as a few Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians and Romanians were interned.

Tamara

I'll try to do a bit more research- but it looks to me like the article makes a distinction between :

Japanese immigrants vs Japanese Americans

German immigrants vs German Americans

And (I assume ) Italian Immigrants and Italian Americans

and states that members of both groups were interred (at least in the paragraph above both Japanese immigrants and Japanese Americans and German immigrants and German Americans).

Still, I'm workin real hard to brush up those reading skills.:)
 
Tams...


Germans weren't concentrated in western Pennsylvania, but througout the entire state.

Western Pennsylvania, because of the steel mills, even at that time, had more people descended from Eastern European roots -- mainly Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, and the like -- than Germany.

In my high school in 1982 we did a geneology project for the junior class.

Of 162 students in the class, 148 listed Germanic ancestry as the predominant group of origin.

That's almost 92%. Italians were about 5%, and the rest were eastern European.

I grew up just outside of Harrisburg, but in my class there were no blacks, no Jews, no Asians, and precious few Catholics.


If you have any interest in it, there's an INCREDIBLE book called "Out of this Furnace," which traces the history of a family of Hungarians who emigrate to the United States and settle in Western Pennsylvania to work in the steel mills.

It was assigned as reading for a college history course, and it was one of those few books that I read the entire way through, and read again later.
 
(cuchulainn, this is the last I will say on the German/Japanese subject since this is a thread on Islam...) I'm not saying anything close to what you are typing. I spoke quite clearly. I said people fear that which is different from them. The Japanese culture is more unlike America than Germany is unlike America. The folks in charge at the time made a decision based on limited facts and fear. Germans were not well known to be involved in suicide bombings or attacks, the Japanese were. The Germans declared war on us instead of an arguable surpise bombing attack such as what terrorists do, the Japanese did not declare war prior to Pearl Harbor. There were smaller numbers of Japanese immigrants than German immigrants/decendants and I'm sure that played a part in the decision. And probably just as important as any other reason I listed, the Japanese look less like the Average Eurpoean decended American than Germans. It's that simple.

Now, please back to Islam. I'm amazed how well this thread is going.:)
 
2dogs,

About 1,600 Italian citizens were interned, all of them here, and about 10,000 Italian-Americans were forced to move from their houses in California coastal communities to inland homes.

And the 600,000 legal Italian immigrants who had not become U.S. citizens were put under travel restrictions. Dozens of American citizens of Italian origin who had shown sympathy for Mussolini were temporarily banished from California.

Besides, none of this makes it right; these people had their rights violated in the worst possible way.

And if you don't think any of the fuss about Italian-American immigrants had to do with racism, well:

"Italians, bad at war, are well-suited for milder competition... Although he learned Italian first, Joe, now 24, speaks English without an accent, and is otherwise well adapted to most U.S. mores. Instead of olive oil or smelly bear grease he keeps his hair slick with water. He never reeks of garlic and prefers chicken chow mein to spaghetti." -Life magazine, 1939.

The "Joe" in question is, of course, Joe DiMaggio...
 
Germany vs. Islam.

In WWII, Germany was a culture that had a very bad problem with xenophobic violence. But it would have been narrow minded to say, "The German culture is inherently more xenophobic and violent than other cultures; it is the German culture itself which is the root of this problem."

Similarly, Islam is a religion/culture in 2003 with a very bad problem with xenophobic violence. But it is narrow minded to say "The Islamic religion is inherently more xenophobic and violent than others; it is the Islamic religion itself which is the root of this problem."

One assumes the culture cannot be healed; the other assumes it can be healed. If Islam itself is the problem, then are we arguing that it should be eradicated along the lines that we (mostly) eradicated National Socialism?

Or is our war about purging from Islam the problem in its culture the way we purged from Germany the problem in its culture?

There is a difference between the culture and a problem within the culture.

Statements like, "Islam is a religion that tells you to send your son to die for God, while Christianity is a religion in which God sends his son to die for you," assumes that the religion is a problem and is beyond cure.

+++++

Yahweh of the Old Testament can be (mis)interpreted to justify genocide of unbelievers, especially Exodus. And that stuff in Revelations could be (mis)used to justify all kinds of horrible "final" battles.

Could it be that religions are not whichever part of a holy book that adherents emphasize, but the whole of what it does and believes?

+++++

I missed the part in history class about the Italian sneak attack. ;)
 
the fuss about Italian-American immigrants had to do with racism

Must have- lord knows they weren't very dangerous militarily; now la Cosa Nostra- that's a whole different animal.


P.S. Before anyone gets their undies in a wad- I'm proud to claim Italian heritage.






Edit: P.S.
 
okay, i fail to see how comparing the efforts of germany to that of muslim nations is even made. germany wasnt relgiously motivated in WWII. they had the backing of the catholic church, but only because organized religion tends to jump on whatever bandwagon their government is riding on.

muslim nations declare 'holy wars' for the sole purpose of fulfilling their religious beliefs. muslim extremists dont sit around wondering 'gee, is there really an allah who would allow such atrocities and horrors to be commited against other humans'?
 
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