Is Islam really a violent religion?

[Marko Kloos]

I recall plenty of bombing and killing of civilians for religious reasons right here in the good ol' USA, and it wasn't done by Muslims. Bring that up, though, and people can't jump up fast enough to shout, "But those aren't true believers!"

 

[MeekandMild]

I will re-ask BigG's question.

Has any mainstream Islamic organization spoken out publicly against terrorism?

C'Mon, its an easy one. Name one single mainstream Muslim religious leader who's spoken out against jihad.

 

[rock jock]

I agree with you. But we deal with each threat as it comes up. Right now, Islamic extremists are the terrorist du jour. It is only logical that we give greater scrutiny to those in sensitive positions that are Muslim and who display any tendencies toward, or sympathies with, extremist beliefs within their religion. Hopefully, this will blow over in a few years and the feds can go back to focusing their attention on us white angry male gun nuts.

 

[spacemanspiff]

http://www.jw-georgia.org/eng/rights/hrwf00sep19.htm

christians have often behaved just as violently and depraved towards those whose beliefs dont match theirs. even in this country there have been many attacks made on religious groups that some feel are 'cults'.

 

[Marko Kloos]

C'Mon, its an easy one. Name one single mainstream Muslim religious leader who's spoken out against jihad.

Okay...


Islamic Organizations

A Message from the Council on American-Islamic Relations

American Muslim Leaders Condemn Attacks

American Muslims and Scholars Denounce Terrorism on Anniversary of 9/11

Australian Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attack

Bin Laden Distorts Islam, Islamic Scholars Say

Bin Laden's Idea of 'Jihad' is Out of Bounds, Islamic Scholars Say

British Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

Canadian Muslims Condemn Terorist Attacks

Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass Murders

Islamic World Deplores U.S. Losses

Looking for Answers in Islam's Holy Book: What Islamic Scholars Have to Say

Muslim Reactions to Sept 11

Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S.

Muslim rulers condemn WTC attacks

New Zealand Muslims Condemn Terrorism

Organization of the Islamic Conference Foreign Ministers Condemn International Terrorism

Quran a Book of Peace Not War, Islamic Scholars Say

Scholars of Islam Condemn Terrorism

Some American Muslims Take a Look at Their Communities' Shortcomings

U.S. Muslim Scholars Condemn Attacks

UK Muslim Leaders Condemn 'Lunatic Fringe'

When is jihad OK? Muslim Perspectives


 

Specific Muslim Scholars


Attacks on Civilians: Forbidden by Islam, by Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi

Bin Laden's Violence is a Heresy Against Islam, by AbdulHakim Murad (Tim Winter)

Expert Says Islam Prohibits Violence Against Innocents, by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Condemns Suicide Bombings, by Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi

Iran's Supreme Leader Condemns Attacks on U.S., by Ayatollah Ali Khamanei

Islam and the Question of Violence, by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Iranian scholar

Jihad: Its True Meaning and Purpose, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui

Most Prominent Sunni Muslim Scholar Condemns Killing of Civilians, by Shaykh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University

Muslim Attitudes about Violence, by Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid

On the Terrorist Attacks, by Imam Zaid Shakir

Reclaiming Islam from the Terrorists, by AbdulHakim Murad, British scholar

Reflections on the National Horror of September 11, 2001, by Muzammil H. Siddiqui

Refutation of Bin Laden's Defense of Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar

Response to a Question about Islam and Terrorism, by Moiz Amjad, Pakistani scholar

Saudi Clerics Condemn Terrorism, by Sheikh Abderrahman al-Sudayes

Saudi Grand Mufti Condemns Terrorist Attacks in U.S., by Shaikh Abdulaziz Al-Ashaikh

Scholars' Statements Regarding The Attacks In The United States, by Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Aali-Shaykh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and President of the Committee of Senior Scholars, and Shaykh Saleh Al-Lehaydaan, Chief Justice Of The Saudi Arabian Judiciary, and Shaykh Dr. Saaleh Ibn Ghaanem As-Sadlaan, Pres. Higher Studies Dept. Al-Imaam Muhammd Ibn Saud Islamic University

Terrorism Is at Odds With Islamic Tradition, by Khaled Abou El Fadl

Terrorism: Not a doorway to heaven, by Jamil Abdul Razzak Hajoo, of Idriss Mosque, Seattle

The Myth of Islamic Terrorism Exploded, by Shaykh Abdul Azeez bin Abdullah bin Baaz and Shaykh Muhammad Bin Saalih al Uthaymeen

The worst enemies of Islam are from within, by Hamza Yusuf

Top Saudi Cleric Says Attacks on U.S. a Terrible Crime in Islam, by Shaykh Salah al-Lahidan, head of the Islamic Judiciary of Saudi Arabia

Violence Against Innocents Violates Islamic Law, by Imam Siraj Wahhaj

 

[Justin]

Can a religion be inherently violent? I suppose that if you're talking about the Incas, then, in practice, yes. Such religions made human sacrifice a required part of the ritual. Islam is nothing like this, it bears far more resemblance to Judaism and Christianity than anything else. Saying that a religion causes violence is just as much a fallacy as saying that guns cause violence. If you want to find the cause of acts of violence, logic would suggest that you look to the one common thread: violent people.

In high school, one of my friends was a Muslim foreign exchange student, and at no time did I fear for my safety when around her.
Are there passages in the Koran that come across as advocating violence? Yeah, but then there are passages in the Bible that do as well. That doesn't mean that both of those religions cause or incite violence. Besides, neither the central tenets of Christianity (The Ten Commandments) or of Islam (The Five Pillars) advocate violence against others.

However, I think that Islam gets a bad rap because it is tied to politics in Middle Eastern countries. Every nation is proud of itself and suspicious of outsiders. Once you start tying national pride to the claim that God is on your side, it's going to be an intoxicating mixture indeed-just look at how wrapped up people at the Republican/Democratic National Conventions get. Throwing religion into a situation like that isn't going to be conducive to rational or logical thinking.

I hope that makes sense...

 

[pax]

Lendringser,

That's cheating!

It was more than one...

pax

Nothing is as frustrating as arguing with someone who knows what he's talking about. -- Sam Ewing

 

[longeyes]

Any religion, taken to mania, can turn violent because all religions tend toward exclusiveness. Maybe a better question is whether Islam is compatible with civil liberties as we understand them. If you are deprived of your basic freedoms, does it matter whether it happens "with a human face" or by the sword?

 

[rock jock]

Perhaps meekandmild should have said "an unqualified" statement against jihad. A brief reading of your sources only serves to bolster Mr. Mild's argument.

From www.islam-democracy.org/terrorism_statement.asp,

We believe in justice and peace for both Israelis and Palestinians. We are convinced that security for Israel can only be achieved by justice for Palestinians. Today, a modicum of justice requires the establishment of an independent Palestinian state through the exercise of Palestinian self-determination. We believe that the continued occupation of Palestinian territories, and Israel's repeated disregard of international law, have made life in the occupied territories unbearable. We say most clearly, however, that the killing of innocent civilians, whether Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, is always wrong and is forbidden in Islamic law and ethics.

These guys can't even get through a simple condemnation of al Queda without immediately starting to refer back to Israel and the Palenstinians?? What does Israel have to do with 9/11? Answer: NOTHING. The very fact that they devote half of their statement to Israel-bashing only shows that they consider the al Queda perspective to have some validity. How about if, when apologizing to the American-Japanese interned during WWII, the US govt says something to the effect of "well, we're sorry, BUT you know, those Asians were really putting it to us and we would not have had to throw you in camps if it wasn't for your brethren across the Pacific! And by the way, how come they're so violent, and..uh. oh, yeah, we're sorry, I guess."

 

[2dogs]

Irish nationalists are, too

Give me a break- for the most part they killed Brits- not anybody and everybody who wasn't Irish.

 

[Ryder]

I read a post on another board written by a person who lives in the Middle East. He said over there that peace preachers are looked upon as we view those who have seen bigfoot or UFO's. They are a very small minority and are not regarded seriously being barely tolerated.

Another comment he made was in regards to the way that the Koran is interpreted. He said that anything written at a later time countermands or cancels out that which was written earlier. Islam was a peaceful religion in it's infancy because they had no choice. As they became more numerous they no longer had to fear others and have become the majority to be feared. This influenced how the text was written and explains why there are so few peace makers anymore.

I don't claim to know myself but this guy sure sounded like he knew what he was talking about. He was highly educated on the matter and was using words which required definitions to be supplied in order to follow along.

 

[Soap]

2dogs- So I could morally reconcile killing anyone that is black since I'm not killing anyone that isn't white?

 

[Marko Kloos]

Irish "Proddies" and Catholics have been killing each other with great enthusiasm over the last century or so. The British only have a cursory role in the conflict...most killers and killees in and around Ulster have been Irish nationals.

 

[longeyes]

Guns don't kill people. IDEAS kill people. Guns are tools. Religions are belief systems, or, perhaps more cynically, mind-control systems. Some "faiths" are invidious and dangerous, conducing to high body-counts and restricted personal freedoms. Some of us here might consider Marxism to fit that bill. We are as entitled to analyze the likely tendencies of religions and cultures as any other set of beliefs, asking ourselves why they might prosper or fail. It is the essence of Political Correctness to be intellectually timorous about doing so.

 

[2dogs]

Non Muslims are by no means saints, but lately the count is going way up on one side:


*In the United States, where these acts have just begun, Muslims bombed the World Trade Center, and conspired to blow up other important buildings and commuter tunnels. Before that, they held Americans hostage in Iran and in Lebanon.

*In southern Sudan, Muslims have destroyed whole villages, killing thousands of Christians, after they crucified their leaders before their eyes.

*In Uganda, Idi Amin slaughtered 300,000 of his people, mostly Christians, after he embraced Islam.

*In Nigeria, Christians are being beaten, imprisoned, and killed by Muslims. Converting to Islam is seen as an easy way out.


*At the start of World War I, Muslim Turks massacred over 1.5 million Armenian Christians for no apparent reason other than being Christian.

Let's not forget the Phillipines and the Balkans.

It certainly seems that in recent history, certainly the last 50-60 years, the mass slaughters of civilians have been committed by Nazi's, Communists and dare I say it- Islamofascists.
Not by "Irish", not by voodoo practioners, and sure as heck not by Americans of any faith.

 

[2dogs]

So I could morally reconcile killing anyone that is black since I'm not killing anyone that isn't white

Tell me where I suggested that- I simply indicated that equating the Irish/British killing to what has gone on in the name of Islam is ludicrous.

Or did I miss where the Irish flew jumbo jets full of people into giant skyscrapers full of people in , oh say, downtown Stockholm.

 

[Marko Kloos]

That just proves that religion in general has a tendency to bring out the worst in some people. Name one religion that hasn't seen its share of bloodshed committed in the name of its deity. Singling out Islam as particularly prone to barbarism is selective and revisionist. Some folks here contend that extremist nutjobs come in all religious flavors. You try hard to convince the assembly that only Islam is afflicted with them.

Even if that was the case, it would hardly give you any justification, constitutional, moral, or otherwise, to hold peaceful Muslims responsible for the acts of their fringe. it would be like saying Christianity is inherently violent because the Southern baptist Convention hasn't publically taken a stand against the Inquisition and the Crusades yet. Why should they? It wasn't committed in their name, nor did they commit it themselves. "Inherited guilt" is a deeply immoral concept, and we are rightly outraged when the gun grabbers try to hold us responsible for the deeds of a few bad apples.

 

[SodaPop]

2dogs-The Hindus in India have killed more Christians and Muslems than the Muslems have killed Christians or Muslems.


The comparisons between what is going on in Ireland compared to the Islamic world is lame . Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants are a decimal point of the Christian world.

What does Israel have to do with 9/11? Answer: NOTHING.

Osama Bin Laden directly referred to kicking the Crusaders and Jews out of "their" land after Sept 11th. Do a search on the letter Bin Laden sent out last year. Its all about the Crusaders and Israelis.

 

[SodaPop]

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Jordan, Morocco, Egypt, Oman, the United Arab Emirates, Armenia, and Qatar should do for starters. All of these countries have a Muslim majorities, most of them are outright Muslim nations, and none of them are currently at war with anyone.

You didn't really mean that did you?

You've just named some of the most unstable countries in the world do to Islamic militants. All of the leaders in those countries have to use force to stay in power because their very existance is threatened on a daily basis.

90% if the countries in that region are one assassination away from a total change of government.

 

[MeekandMild]

lendringser, thank you. I haven't had time to look more thoughly at your list, but are any doing anything proactive to stop violent Muslims from continuing to practice jihad?

In answer to your return question, I can't find any evidence that the mainstream sects of modern Wicca advocate violence.

 

[Beorn]

The thing to remember about Islam is this: Mohammed had his writing (the Qu'ran), and then the 'learned men' had their writings (the Sunnah).

Mohammed himself was not a violent man. In fact he seemed to be quite against fighting and bloodshed. However, the Sunnah seems to be "reliably transcribed" by his holy interpreters. These are the writings you have to watch out for. They say that these are things that Mohammed did or approved of, yet I do not believe that he condoned any sort of Jihad, or Holy War, for any reason.

This is one of those times when people do things "in the Lord's name." Really? Did God tell you to slaughter Constantinople on your way to "free" the Holy City of Jerusalem? Really? Did God tell you to slaughter countless Jews and Muslims while throwing them out of Spain in the late 15th century? Etc., etc.

Just as the Inquisition does not speak for all Catholics (or indeed, all Christians), The Sunnah does not speak for Mohammed (and we can dance around the "translation versus transliteration" argument all day; let's not).

Irish nationalists are, too Give me a break- for the most part they killed Brits- not anybody and everybody who wasn't Irish.

Um, actually we Irish have been killing each other off quite well for 3000 years. The Romans couldn't get to us (they only once thought about invading Hibernia, and Agricola rightly decided to leave Anglia and head back to Rome), so we decided to kill ourselves.
Two caveats to this...
First, the Vikings and Dublin. They made the city themselves, just so they'd have a place to raid. The further South-West you go, the fewer Vikings that come back alive from raids (circa 800-1000).
Second, Oliver Cromwell. I know he has his own special place in hell for all of the attrocities he committed in Ireland in the early 17th century. Using cannons on Blarney Castle! Bastard!

The Easter uprising was nasty and against the British, but de Valera's and Collin's feud was Irish against Irish. My Mum to this day won't set foot in Ulster (hasn't since 1975) because she dislikes the Orange Party. And she's Irish Protestant! She favors a Brit-free Ireland like most Southerners do. What can I say, we fight each other since few else are worth our consideration!

"An Irishman is forced to speak to the Almighty, so's he can speak to someone near his station."

 

[twoblink]

I personally find that the religion is pretty violent... for those who choose to enforce the "no tolorance" policy.

I think the fact that most of them take pride in the fact that they hate everything that is not Muslim makes it that much worse.

I cannot comment on the religion from any other perspective then what I have seen myself; but I will say this; I have a lot of friends that are muslim that are very gentle and peaceful, and so all the violence cannot be attributed to the religion alone. Yes, they might all be men with guns; but it's those who chooses to pull the triggers at innocent people that is violent.

People are violent; that I think is the crux of the problem.

I think the extremists really make the religion look bad. It's like LA and SF makes the PRK... well... look like the PRNJ..

 

[Boudicca]

Armenia????

Lendsringer! Please! Do not lump Armenia among the Islamic nations. Armenia was the very first Christian nation. The first.
My children's grandfather was a survivor of the massacres of Armenians engineered by Those Peaceful Muslims The Turks. His story beggars belief. He was nine years of age when he was kidnapped by Bedouins from the death march. It was the last time he saw his mother. He was a slave of "peaceful" Muslims until rescued by American/Armenian soldiers at the end of WWI.
I will not cast the pain and ultimate triumph of his life before this group, but NEVER make the mistake that Armenians are anything but Christian and know that they have been harrowed by Muslims in the past and continue to suffer at the hand of those peaceful practitioners of that "religion."

You would do well to research the first genocide of the Twentieth Century.

 

[SodaPop]

Lendringser- your really shooting yourself in the foot with those links you posted. I did a search on on the net of two of the threads you posted and they contradict everything you've said on this thread.

Do a search on the people and the mosques that are mentioned on your links and you'll see how they all lead to arrests of people in the mosques that supposedly condemned 9/11.

Another of the threads that you link there even referred to this:

The leader's remarks make it clear there will be no Iranian support for a large scale military adventure in Afghanistan, although there is absolutely no love lost between Tehran and the Taleban.

Do a little research into Iran's relationship with all of its neighbors. Its been fighting with ALL of them.
Iran and the Taliban were killing each other before the US was over there.



Don't bend over backwards for the enemy.

 

[Marko Kloos]

My mistake: scratch Armenia from the list. Armenia is 95% Christian, namely Armenian Apostolic.

That's still a sizeable list of predominantly Muslim countries which are currently not at war with their neighbors or anyone else. I believe the challenge was to "name only one". Their internal stability was not a condition for the initial question, although I disagree with the notion that they all need to use force for a Muslim government to stay in power. (Their population is largely Muslim, remember?)

In answer to your return question, I can't find any evidence that the mainstream sects of modern Wicca advocate violence.

I can't find any evidence that the mainstream Islamic sects advocate violence, either. I think I posted a rather lengthy list of Muslim organizations and prominent scholars which specifically condemn terrorism and the killing of innocents. All the evidence I can dig up leads me to believe that violent Muslims are every bit as much of a minority as violent Christians.

But why let that get in the way of a good old-fashioned religious feud? The banners are hoisted, and it's Islam Versus Christianity, the sequel...

I haven't had time to look more thoughly at your list, but are any doing anything proactive to stop violent Muslims from continuing to practice jihad?

Yeah, I carry a gun. If I see someone plant a bomb, or shoot up a mall, or hijack a city bus, I'll shoot them as a proactive measure. I will not ascertain their religion first. Excuse me, jowever, if I don't join the nightly torch excursion to the Muslim neighbor's house, just because he shares a religion with the 9/11 hijackers.

Do a little research into Iran's relationship with all of its neighbors. Its been fighting with ALL of them.

I believe the question was "currently at war", and Iran is not at war with anyone right now. Technically, the only war Iran fought since the Muslim fundamentalists took over was the 1980-88 Gulf War...and that one was started by secular Iraq.

Also, Iran did not fight any neighboring country except Iraq, so it has most definitely *not* "fighting with all of them".

Iran and the Talenban were killing each other before the US was over there

Even if that was true, which it isn't, how would that make the Iranians the bad guys? I thought killing fundamentalists who sponsor terrorism was good?

Don't bend over backwards for the enemy.

My enemies are people who wipe their butts with the Constitution. My enemies are violent terrorists who kill innocent civilians for religious or political reasons. I do not care what religion or skin color these people have. I refuse to label "muslims" my enemy, unless they are, as individuals, proven to have homicidal intentions towards me or my fellow citizens. In the absence of harmful intent, I have no right to bear ill will towards any individual, regardless of their religion. Apparently, this is be an alien concept to some.