Is it Enough?

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brownie0486

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What is the goal behind the training and practice in the use of the handgun in defense of our person or other?

It would seem one of our goals, if not the main goal, should be that we are able to deliver rounds on threat in the shortest period of time once we determine that is in fact necessary.
The training we seek from anyone, is probably to be as proficient in drawing from concealed, or from a duty holster [likely if we are LE], and using various skills to stop the potential lethal threat to us in the shortest time.

Many factors come into play to be able to deliver rounds accurately enough [we’ll discuss this later], and with sufficient speed, to keep from being killed or maimed by others with the handgun we choose to carry.

The mission statement of the handgun involves a few things here. One is that a handgun allows us to carry a tool that’s sufficient to accomplish our goal from any given distance whether that be from bad breath to well beyond it’s normal parameters. That it also has enough power to persuade an aggressor to stop their actions against us by causing them enough physical harm or perhaps by just seeing we have that capability before they fully act out an aggression against us to begin with.

Being an inanimate object, the handgun does our bidding by our own personal abilities with that tool. It can’t act on it’s own, it needs our mental and physical intervention [input] in it’s use to allow it to perform adequately. What is adequate takes so many forms through as many variables, that it is now up to us and our direct input with that tool to solve the problem at hand.

It’s not enough to just be able to make use of the tools inherent accuracy or it’s particular attributes to be accurate in doing so. If it were, bull’s-eye shooters would be the best at defending themselves. It’s also not enough to just be able to rapidly fire our handguns either. We need to couple the guns inherently accurate attributes with quick shots [working the trigger mechanism] in concert with each other. But are those two criteria enough in and of themselves? We all know they aren’t, there are elements that still need to be brought into play here which require further skills.

Handhold/gripping of the weapon would have to be considered an important aspect. One handed or two, there are a few variations that seem to be the mainstay in today’s training. One that’s been made very popular and riding a wave of interest in the last decade is the two handed “high thumbs” grip developed and used almost exclusively by the masters
and their followers of the various competitions. The other the thumbs locked down two handed hold which has been around for decades and which I was trained in some 25 years ago now.

No matter which two handed grip/hold you use, if you can keep rapid fire recoil controlled adequately, either will work and trainers should not attempt to force a shooter to change from using either unless of the two mentioned unless there’s an obvious problem with the shooters present recoil management.

After recoil management we would probably expect trigger control to be next in important. Trigger control is likely related in some way to our “recoil management” of the grip/hold on the weapon. Trigger control should be isolated from the handhold as much as it can be, and based on the shooters physical attributes [length of fingers, size of ones hand] it can become apparent that the various grips/holds they are using might need to be changed to allow for a more uniform and repeatable trigger pull.

We have seen many shooters who do not practice enough with their one handed shooting as they do their two handed shooting. There are probably several contributing factors in why shooters tend to practice/work the handgun one handed less than two handed. One of the biggest reasons may be the square range practice most have been accustomed to in the past at both public and private ranges. Many have more interested in the past in what their “groups of shots” look like [how small they can make them] than how fast they can shoot or being cognizant of their need for increased recoil management as their speed increases, not to mention their understanding of the need for increased management of both recoil and trigger speed.

Another reason is likely that they don’t see the same results [the same groupings of their shots] on the targets when shooting one handed due to recoil being harder to control with one hand than two as well as not being to isolate the trigger finger and fire as rapidly with the one hand. Though the reasons can be explained here for the deterioration of speed and accuracy [a combination of recoil management and trigger control], through practice and proper training, shooting one handed can be brought to the same level of proficiency as their two handed shooting skills through guidance in these matters by someone who understands what’s needed here, and more importantly perhaps the methods that can be incorporated to achieve the same success using one hand as they enjoy while using a two handed hold.

The goal of anyone who is interested in self defense with a pistol is to master the above so that it becomes a subconscious and reflexive act to bring all the skills necessary to “run the gun” optimally in the physical sense so we may then move forward to concentrate on the mental aspects of defending ourselves in a dynamic environ under stress as is created when our very lives are in imminent danger from various outside stimuli as we move about in our normal daily activities.

Once we have the above physical skills of “running the gun” ingrained into muscle memory and we are comfortable enough in those skills, we can then move into the higher order of making use of the various techniques [those that become separate skills later through repetitions and practice as they are themselves ingrained into our subconscious] that can be optimally applied as necessary based on their individual strengths in any given situation.

As a person who trains others in various skills [techniques], I have a responsibility to ensure my students are at the subconscious level of “running the gun” physically, to a particular level of proficiency, which allows them to react and ultimately use the skills/techniques they may need to know and to call upon one day to defend themselves in the most expeditious and efficient manner and to a successful conclusion where they survive a threat to their very existence.

Is this enough in and of itself, to be at the level necessary to run the gun physically at the subconscious level, having all the various skills/techniques we can train into the student individually, or is there an even higher order that can follow. Is it enough to give the students, say 20 separate techniques that they can then purportedly call upon under crisis?

It’s certainly advantageous to have as many skills/techniques as possible to call upon. The more we have of these at our disposal the more we can call upon almost instantly when the need arises. Is it as far as we can take the students or ourselves?

Is it enough?

Brownie
 
Good point Brownie but how do you see the practical problem that most people are not interested in learning to shoot with the dedication you suggest?

Out of the number of people who carry firearms, as SD, as a job and illegally what percentage belong to this site? I do not know - let's say 1 in 1000. Of the number of people on this site, how many REALLY want to know how to use a gun to the best of their ability? Perhaps 1 in 100. How many of those people are willing to put effort into training? Perhaps 1 in 10 of the last group. How many of this group will succeed in reaching the level you would like to push them to ?????

The person you want is rare in society, rare even amongst the so-called professionals. You are looking for the latent Samurai who views excellence with a firearm as a life ambition. A good instructor needs only one such pupil in a lifetime. The student who, under dedicated tuition, leaves the field better than his instructor. Good Luck. I hope you find him.
 
shooter503;

I believe that the more people see what they can accomplish, the more willing they are to explore their boundaries, barring funds and time to do so. The real challenge comes in getting people who are slightly interested in improving their present skills to understand [ in classes ], that they can make significant gains in skills levels fairly rapidly, and the go out and practice that which they have come to understand and be able to perform further on their own.

Self exploration of their potential after this type of education under the guidance of a competent instructor is the real worth of the training. That is, the mindset they come away with that more things are possible than they ever imagined, therby peaking their interest in exploring that full potential for them individually, no matter where that can take them as a person.

I may have found one such student in Knoxville who has real promise and potential in his abilities, is young enough to not only have the time to find himself with the guidance but more importantly, he has the desire through being shown what can be accomplished in with the right instruction [ you could see the fire in his shooting between the two classes between this spring and fall sessions. If he stays with it, the desire continues that he has shown in 6 months, he'll go places many have not ever reached. It was very rewarding to see him get to the level he's at in such a short time in just 6 months.

There's more to come on "Is it enough",

stay tuned

Brownie
 
brownie0486 said: Is it enough?

Hey, you know it just as well as I do . . . go find out how many "shooters" will pay for professional training. Its a fraction of a percent of gun owners. Most that do, are repeat customers. You know it.


Its gotta be simple. Its gotta be repeatable. And it gotta be universal, related to other skills.


The reason I spend time with it, besides being enjoyable both in practice and socially, is so I can spend time on other matters. The better and faster I get with my skills, the more mental effort I can devote to evaluating a situation, paying attention to clues, and doing my best to resolve it. After all that, the handgun skills are the easiest part of the dynamic. The interpersonal skills are the hardest ones to develop and apply.


Once I know a situation can't be resolved with anything less than the use of force, knowing how much time I need to deploy it gives me time I need to attempt those other options.
 
I think follow up shots are important in a possible "confrontation" but running the gun? Running the gun can only be good for "follow up" and learning this idea...but perfect practice makes perfect. Why would you want to run the gun in combat? So you can reload? Competition this would be great, but for a REAL life moving target...? got me....ive never shot at anybody and can only suppose.
 
Shooting skills, as important as they are, still involve only one tool in the toolbox. 'Enough' is 'the school of the sword of no sword,' that is, developing a skill set sufficient to allow the avoidance of having to ever use a firearm in defense. Is that an attainable goal? Perhaps, but it is difficult- and the more involved in a multidimensioned life a person is, the more difficult it becomes.

No matter how greased-lightning fast a person is with a gun, no matter how deadly a shot, if taken unaware from behind then that person's firearms skills are essentially irrelevant. If awareness fails, as it inevitably must at some time, what is the shooter to do at that point? When grappling is called for, shooting isn't going to be an immediate option in some cases. Does the shooter have a skillset that includes retention of their CCW when in contact? Breaking contact enough to draw? Drawing to retention and firing from retention?

"Enough" is an awfully big word...

lpl/nc (still awed by just how big a word it is)
 
Nothing is ever enough. You're never ready for a life or death encounter, no matter who you are. All any of us can do is prepare as much as we can and live a lifestyle dedicated to making sure that we do everything we can to stay alive. All we can do is increase the odds that we are better, faster, and more determined than a potential attacker.

Massad Ayoob takes off one week every year to train. If HE needs to train, then the rest of us do to.
 
Massad Ayoob takes off one week every year to train. If HE needs to train, then the rest of us do to.

I spend about one week worth of time training in each month...I hope my wife doesn't see this post because if she actually knew how much time and money I spend on shooting and self defense she would want a new BMW.

One week a year is not going to do much and there is a learning curve when it comes to becoming good at something. It takes whole lot more time and effort to become good at something then it does to maintain it. To maintain these skills you have to use them regularly.

What I have found is people have no idea what true violence is like and at the moment of truth they lock up. At some point training has to address this and teach the student how to work through this. The techniques that are taught to student need to be simple and above all…effective in the manner they are used and advanced techniques need to build from the simple ones.
 
I've got a one on one training schedule this week for the next 5 days. I'll get back to this subject and where I'm going with it in a few days after that.

I have some ideas roughed out and I'm going to test the ideas and theorems I have put together, with this student as the test subject, at the end of his weeks training.

I'll get back to everyone then. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to others comments and thoughts of what I'm talking about in my original post here.

Brownie
 
Sounds like you are on the right track there Brownie. I see a lot of my development reflected in what you write. Only difference is it took me decades and that's too bad for me. A shortcut would have been nice considering what age is doing to me now :(

What is enough? Well there is a limit to what can be taught due to time constraints so that just has to do. It shouldn't be enough for the student though. They can improve beyond that. From my perspective some techniques aren't going to work as well as others for everybody because body mechanics vary. I think individuals can make the greatest gains by focusing on improving what works best for them and discarding what's not leading to optimal solutions. I don't need a bazillion options, just ones that will get the job done with perfection.

I must be strange though. I don't see mastery as mimicking others. Conforming to the ways of another is forced and unatural, slow and awkward (not to mention impossible sometimes) for me. That's a hard road to ultimate performance. Individualized style on the other hand flows smoothly, is natural, powerful, and precise. There is no thought penalty and appears to others as magical. I've tried teaching this concept to others but can't honestly say anyone has been able to impliment it. They just keep trying to copy :banghead:
 
Brownie ~

Excellent opening post. I'm interested to see where you're going with it.

Is this enough in and of itself, to be at the level necessary to run the gun physically at the subconscious level, having all the various skills/techniques we can train into the student individually, or is there an even higher order that can follow. Is it enough to give the students, say 20 separate techniques that they can then purportedly call upon under crisis?

My observation is that as individual techniques are first taught, and then practiced, and finally mastered, the student tends to integrate the separate techniques into a "whole." Many people do that so efficiently that, when you ask them to break down a task for a newcomer, they are simply unable to do it; what they have learned has formed a cohesiveness that they have difficulty separating back down into individual components.

All that sounded like jargon, maybe. But what it means is, you've got an experienced student who just ran through the tac house. He gave little thought to the specifics of how he was holding the gun (muzzle direction, profile coming around corners, etc), little thought to the mechanics of doing his quick-search (don't crowd cover, pie corners, etc), and when faced with a threat target, he easily and quickly put a few shots center mass. He did not need to think about any of the mechanical skills going through the house, thinking instead about the problem to be solved (where's the BG? Where's the danger point? Which room should I enter next?)

All well and good. As I said, a good shooter and an experienced student.

Now ask this person to turn around and explain to a total newcomer how to do the same thing. This experienced student will very likely be unable to break the tasks down into manageable chunks. He will leave out very basic, foundational material and perhaps belabor insignificant details. And he will do this, not because he is a poor student or because he does not know the material himself; he will do it because he knows the material too well, so well that it has become one monolithic lump in his mind.

What I'm getting at is that we do want the student to integrate his skills, but provided the student is serious about learning and not just a dabbler, that integration sure seems to happen naturally. Keeping the skills separate enough to break them down and teach them to others is what takes work.

pax
 
Just make sure you carry the dang thing - if it is sitting home in the safe, it's useless.

Also, if your gun doesn't fit, when something bad happens, you will...

Okay... Pax would hurt me. You get the picture.

Take the time, and find something that works for you ergonomically. That's 90% of the battle right there. The M1911A1 with the curved backstrap points so naturally for me that it's spooky. My Ruger 90 also isn't bad... Forget the S&W J frames. I'd be going for a head shot, and neuter the robber... Aim, but if aiming to you is more like confirmation that you're on target, things just fall into place so nicely.
 
my opinion is that the next level you're searching for is the ability to tailor standardized techniques to the strengths and weaknesses of the physique and intellect and preferences of the individual.

culturally, most americans fail to master anything because they want to customize things and do it their own way before they have even the slightest bit of proficiency in a given discipline. i.e. they're morons.

but ideally, one would become proficient in many the styles and stances and grips and draws and sighting methods etc. Then through copious practice, find the ones that work best, and i would say mastery really comes when you're able to combine and tweak and tune effectively.
 
What is the goal behind the training and practice in the use of the handgun in defense of our person or other?

Brownie ~

Another thought, this time jumping off the beginning of your post rather than the end. Probably I'll bore everyone because maybe this is a bit too obvious and foundational, but the goal of all this stuff is that we learn to avoid trouble or defeat it.

Toward that end, a good instructor helps his student develop

1) a mindset for avoiding trouble when possible, or for decisively overcoming trouble when avoidance is not possible, even when the problem looks difficult, even when the student is overwhelmed or under stress, even when whatever;

2) an accurately-placed internal confidence which is externally visible, improving the student's odds of remaining un-attacked by people who are good at picking out prey, and (because it is accurately placed) which will allow him to simply "do what needs done" whenever his skills are tested rather than freezing in fear;

and

3) several effective skill sets, including the habit of carrying the physical tools each skill set requires. For example, if the skill set is "handgun proficiency," the student must have a handgun in order to use that skill set.

There is no point in developing good skill sets unless both mindset and confidence are developed along with them.

Confidence tends to come naturally with increasing skill, however that confidence must be accurately understood and accurately distributed between the skill and the physical tool. The student must develop an accurate assessment of both his own skill and of how necessary any given tool is to the use of that skill. As an example: in class, you teach a student how to do a speed reload from a mag pouch on his belt. He soon develops an accurate understanding of his reload speed under those conditions. He must not simply export that understanding, unchanged, if he habitually carries a reload stuffed into his pocket. Instead, along with an accurate understanding of how quickly he can do a reload once the mag is in his hand, he must develop an accurate understanding of his physical limitations in accessing the mag when it is in his pocket rather than in a mag pouch. Or if he does not carry a reload at all, he must accurately understand that his reload skills will never count for snot in the real world, and act accordingly. So the confidence must be accurately placed, and accurately distibuted between the skill set and the tool.

Mastering the physical tasks within each skill set also usually develops mindset to some degree, but moreso if the mindset is specifically encouraged rather than simply allowed to develop willy-nilly. A good instructor balances learning a skill set along with reminders of why that skill set may be needed. Let 'em practice cardboard-target head shots, then bring 'em back to earth by discussing the medula oblongata and its location in a living human being. Get everyone ramped up in force-on-force scenarios, and when the dust settles, ask the students, "Would you have taken that shot if the hostage were your wife, your best friend, your child?" Let your students have fun developing the skills, but never let them get too far away from the ultimate use of the skills and what their development means.

And here we are, full circle. What developing the skill set ultimately means is that we, as students, must become able to avoid trouble or to defeat it.

pax
 
part 2

Part 2

I don’t believe it is enough as a trainer. I believe it is just the beginning in our journey to be able to “run the gun”. Certainly the basics already covered have to be ingrained into the memory and muscles used and with sufficient practice usually will be. Practicing with a hand held firearm enough eventually instills the confidence to use it proficiently where the use of sights is concerned.

There is more than meets the eye, literally, to shooting, at least where it concerns what we humans are really capable of physically. The eyes learn to “read” the picture we see when the sights are aligned, or the front sight is properly placed onto a target/threat. The mind remembers what the eyes become familiar with to obtain the results of rounds where we want them to go. The mind also becomes familiar with the physical skills and various positions we can obtain to affect certain results as well. This physical memory is called proprioception. We learn mentally to verify visually, and our bodies learn proprioceptively where we need to be physically in order to accomplish any given task.

Through innumerable repetitions we develop an awareness of where our bodies arms, hands, fingers will need to be proprioceptively to accomplish some task. Where the gun is on our waist without looking at it, what our hands and fingers need to do to acquire the grip of the pistol through familiarity of these tasks. We naturally do not have to look at or “see” the gun on our waist to know where it sits, how it needs to be grasped. Our fingers have been grasping for things, clenching objects since just after we were born, and perhaps before we were born.

Our hands and fingers can determine the amount of gripping strength needed to secure an object so we don’t drop it based on the resistance felt automatically , can determine the angle of the grip as it sits in some holster, and retrieve it from that position all without ever consciously having to think about it. It just happens, we have that ability naturally through the proprioceptors that have been developed in our shoulders, arms, hands and fingers since birth working in conjunction with the mental capacity to think an action and have our body move to accomplish that action without conscious thought.

Where this comes into play is important in understanding how to use this natural ability to our best advantage where we want to become the best we can be without conscious thought of the “how to” which tends to overcomplicate many physical actions such as drawing and firing a handgun.

Where this over complication process makes itself apparent as a trainer takes many forms. The simple act of the drawing of the firearm from it’s resting place in a holster is a prime example here. I’ve had students in classes who have been professionally trained in a 4 count draw stroke to the point their mind and body fight the natural instinct to just draw the firearm in one fluid movement. Where their natural ability has been replaced with some convoluted and over complicated set of instructions, based on what they have been trained to do both mentally and physically, moving away from the simple task itself, in the “how to” to properly draw the gun.

If I ask a student to draw a handgun from a holster, they are quite capable of doing so without any instruction on my part, even though in some cases, they have never drawn a handgun from a holster before. If I ask them to perform this task without input, they do not draw into some 4 count draw stroke instinctively. They move their hand to the gun, grasp the grip and remove it from the holster. They don’t have to look at the gun in the holster to do so even on their first attempt at this. Their proprioceptive abilities take over, they know through the physical weight of the firearm on their waist where the gun is. Their shoulder, arm, hand and fingers can “find” the gun without any conscious thought from the very first draw.

The first attempts may be somewhat slower than in subsequent draws, but they needed no intervention, direction or input to accomplish the task asked of them. Here is where a trainer can then develop that draw stroke further. Lets look at this act of drawing further here.

We need to get the gun into play from it’s resting place before it can be used, whether in defense of our person or just plinking on the range. If I were to ask the student to draw his firearm 10,000 times without any intervention, without the student having any previously conceived notion of how to do so properly, when that student came back to me I would likely see he had figured out how to smooth out that function naturally for the most part. If we then tasked the student to practice the drawing of the firearm with the intention and specific goal of becoming faster at the task at the same time, the student would have figured out the best way to do so for himself based on his unique body structure, with his natural physical abilities including any real disabilities or injuries that may have to be physically worked through in his or her own particular set of circumstances which may preclude their being as fast as they normally might be.

It’s pretty obvious the student would not have come back to the instructor with a 4 count draw stroke on his own. The 4 count draw stroke is not naturally going to be where people get to left to figure out the fastest way to accomplish that task. Their proprioceptive ability would have given them instant feedback to what was required to produce a faster presentation of the firearm from their holster. It’s here that an instructor can now further work with the student making any minor corrections to gain some smaller amounts of speed in that draw stroke and perhaps smooth it up further, therby gaining some more speed.

As the first physical skill to defend with a handgun that’s carried holstered is the drawing of said weapon, it’s important to have the ability to draw that firearm with as much speed as possible. Most of us carry a firearm with a defensive mindset. We will be reacting to some visual stimuli that gives us enough information to draw in defense of our person or that of others around us lawfully. As such, we are usually going to be behind the curve here. It would seem to make sense that anything that slowed our actions in the draw would be detrimental at a time when we can’t afford to be any slower than we want to be.

Has anyone had to be shown or trained how to extend their arm to handshake with another? I think that would be very unlikely. Would you naturally use a 4 count or even a 3 count handshake?. Again, that would be very unlikely as well. What we see when someone handshakes is that no matter where their hand is when the task is required, they move with fluidity of motion to extend the hand. The shortest distance from where they are to where they want to be with the hand usually comes naturally to everyone and is not based on some linear movement, but based on their proprioceptive ability to know where the hand is in time and space relative themselves and the other person, and naturally move it to another space still relative to their position in relation to the other party, all without having to look at the hand.

People have been trained away from this natural ability for decades it seems to me. They’ve been brought to a place quite often where they believe they need to train some task in a certain manner that actually has hindered their ability to be as smooth and fast as they could be naturally. It’s a task that can be daunting for another instructor to correct dependant on how much that person has trained in the overcomplicated and away from their natural abilities. Recently, two students who were well trained and versed in their 4 count draw stroke were out here for training. They were brought back, with some effort on my part, to a place where they can use their natural abilities again. Retrained to use an ability they had all along but had been taken away from them by previous instructors.

Helping people be as fast as they physically can be in their draw stroke is just part of their training, but even with this,

Is it enough?
 
brownie said,

I’ve had students in classes who have been professionally trained in a 4 count draw stroke to the point their mind and body fight the natural instinct to just draw the firearm in one fluid movement.

Are you saying that the tried and true by the numbers training technique is invalid? I would suggest that the students you have had who were trained in a 4 count draw stroke nad were not presenting their pistol in one fluid movement had not practiced that draw stroke enough so that it is a smooth fluid movement.

Actions like a draw stroke are broken down into steps as a method for teaching them. If a student left his other class and some time later was unable to present his pistol without reverting to the by the numbers technique he had learned from, then it's not indicative of anything except the student did not practice his drawstroke so that it was one fluid movement.

A by the numbers training technique is used when the student has no experience performing a task. It helps cut down on the extra movements and fumbles an inexperienced shooter may have when learning a draw stroke.

If I ask a student to draw a handgun from a holster, they are quite capable of doing so without any instruction on my part, even though in some cases, they have never drawn a handgun from a holster before. If I ask them to perform this task without input, they do not draw into some 4 count draw stroke instinctively. They move their hand to the gun, grasp the grip and remove it from the holster. They don’t have to look at the gun in the holster to do so even on their first attempt at this. Their proprioceptive abilities take over, they know through the physical weight of the firearm on their waist where the gun is. Their shoulder, arm, hand and fingers can “find” the gun without any conscious thought from the very first draw.

You've never had a shooter fumble while defeating the retention device? Cover part of their body or someone else on the range with the muzzle? Have a negligent discharge because their finger was on the trigger as soon as they gripped the weapon? Have to readjust their grip on the weapon after they've cleared the holster?

I've seen inexperienced shooters do all of those things while presenting their handguns. I don't think training a drawstroke by the numbers overcomplicates anything. It's a safe method of introducing an inexperienced shooter to an efficient draw stroke.

There will be students who would never figure out a smooth presentation on their own if you left them alone for 20,000 draw strokes.

Jeff
 
Are you saying that the tried and true by the numbers training technique is invalid?

Not at all, it's just slower than it has to be, no matter how smooth one becomes with it from practice.

Actions like a draw stroke are broken down into steps as a method for teaching them.

As I mentioned, NO student has not been able to draw a gun from a holster and none have used a 4 count draw naturally.

A by the numbers training technique is used when the student has no experience performing a task.

See above Jeff

You've never had a shooter fumble while defeating the retention device?

Where civilians are concerned, I have once or twice. One here recently had me cut those retention straps off his holster concealed holster. He learned very quickly that they are not only unnecessary [ plenty of holsters don't have them to begin with ], but they also slow the draw down considerably.

Where LEO were concerned as students, they have not come with their duty gear so far. One who was a trainer for his 1400+ man dept brought his normal gear he works the street with, no retention straps/devices.

Have a negligent discharge because their finger was on the trigger as soon as they gripped the weapon?

None in the classes so far, and I've not had that happen to myself in some 30+ years of drawing a gun, some of which was from a custom leather tie down rig specifically made for drawing with speed.

I know it happens, has happened and will happen again in the real world. That only means that they need to slow down and are not experienced enough with their gear and weapon to attempt the speed which induced that premature discharge. Even the gamers who use equipment made for very quick presentations very rarely have ND's, so it is not so much a matter of the speed of presentation but the students/users understading and memory to perform a task without having one.

There will be students who would never figure out a smooth presentation on their own if you left them alone for 20,000 draw strokes.

Then those people are not cognizant of what they need to do to make that happen while they are practicing IMO. That many draws and one would pretty much be able to get to some smoothness. If they hadn't, that means they need to be trained even more so, not necesarrily that they need to learn some 4 count to get the gun out of the holster.

There will always be exceptions to the rule in training. I have not seen one student draw and fire prematurely or accidently in the classes. That includes some women in one class who had no formal training, no real experience drawing with some speed to get hits, and certainly had no muscle memory or training in how to get the weapon out of the holster on the line. No sweeping of others either.

Brownie
 
There will always be exceptions to the rule in training. I have not seen one student draw and fire prematurely or accidently in the classes. That includes some women in one class who had no formal training, no real experience drawing with some speed to get hits, and certainly had no muscle memory or training in how to get the weapon out of the holster on the line. No sweeping of others either.

Perhaps we've been dealing with a different type of student. My training experience is mostly military and law enforcement. I've seen plenty of the lowest common denominator students on the firing line. If your experience has been mostly in the private sector with paying students, you've probably seen more motivated students. It can be somewhat different dealing with students who's main motivation for being at training is that they have to be there.

The last time I conducted rifle training for a certain police unit, one of the officers turned up without his tac team turn out. (The email didn't specify he bring it to training :eek: ) I loaned him my tac vest, and there he was on the line loading from a spare magazine in his back pocket. :scrutiny:

"Do ya think I loaned you my kit so you'd look kewl?" I asked. "I loaned it to you so you'd have mag pouches to load from and wouldn't waste this training time learning a technique you won't use on a call out."

Jeff
 
Jeff White;

I think you hit it pretty well on the head here. Students who spend their own money and time to attend, are better motivated to train previously and during the courses we put together than your students, per se. Many of the students I see don't want the day to end and want to fire even more rounds than they have, which is considerable already.

I've seen the LE police lines in training you cite while in uniform myself. Not many motivated to be there except they were being paid to attend a mandatory requirement for the job. A few were dedicated to bettering themselves but for the most part, the majority wanted to get it over with as soon as possible and return to their more pressing personal agendas.

I have no experience with training current mils at all so I can't comment on that part of the post, but what you stated seems to make sense where the differences and mindset are concerned.

Brownie
 
I think it is no different than many other parts of our society. Everyone wants the magic pill. If they are out of shape, they want a medication/surgery to fix it, not healthy excercise, self control, and hard work. People would rather believe simply relying on the best technology offered will be enough or effective, when in fact it is of even less importance than dedication or training.
Gun users that are not skilled enough to be able to put to better use a 1 MOA over a 3 still somehow believe one will give them superior skills when they don't hit within the accuracy potential of the weapon they have. That the best tools and equipment will make up for lack of dedication in achieving the desired results.

In this respect they are not unique from many other parts fo the general public.

Nor is the weapon skill the only factor. Ability to safely detain (cuff, tie up etc) with the least risk, ability in situations to identify cover, exits, weapons, threats, and other important factors prior to and during a firefight/defense situation instantly, and ability to think clearly and cognitively in high stress situations are just as if not more important.

The best bull's eye shooter is not the best soldier, police officer, or protected citizen. However it is still an important skill in thier arsenal of skills that enable the job to be done in the most effective safe manner.

So when I start hearing about people with poor dedication, and others observing them and believing the problem to simply be a lack of necessary skill or technology I must shake my head. There is no magic pill.

If shooting a weapon well is the desired result that is one thing. If fighting with the weapon in the most effective way is however the desired result there is many more factors to consider than range accuracy. If you see people not dedicated to proficient use in one potentialy necessary tool (like accuracy with a duty weapon) they may rely on, then they are likely lacking dedication in other aspects just as important. Meaning improving one may do little to change the effectiveness of the individual because they are not dedicated to being as capable as possible to begin with.
 
I always tried to get to the range at least twice a month to practice, but didn't always meet my goal. I am a decent shot but shooting still targets gets boring and I tended to get lax in my practice. About 7 month ago I was "sucked" into trying "practical shooting." Time and accuracy is the name of the game (and don't shoot goodguys). Once I tried it, I was hooked! My first time out I was so nervous for fear of messing up in front of the other competitors that I could feel my heart pounding. The first 2 shoots I tried to rush in an attempt to keep my time low and shot placement suffered, however no goodguys were hit. ;) I was reminded that accuracy was job 1 and time came next. With each successive meet, my accuracy improved, as did my time since my focus was on shot placement and not time. As a result of this monthly competition, my draw, aim, reload, and accuracy are becoming more automatic and quicker, and I don't feel my heart pounding(as much). :) For me this is a great way to keep my skills sharp and have fun at the same time.
 
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