AR pistol question

[madmike]

I just picked up an AR receiver, new, unused, sold by the dealer as "pistol."

Obviously, I must first build this as a pistol and document that.

After that, is it legal to have a spare kit to convert it to a standard over 16" rifle? Stock and upper? I know you can do it with the carbine kits for 1911s, and with TCs. I also had someone tell me that because of the two part receiver, it's illegal to do it with an AR.

 

[DMK]

It's my understanding that a pistol can be converted to a rifle, and then it can be converted to a pistol again. Thompson Center beat the ATF in court over that regarding their Encore and Contender handguns.

The fact that the AR has a separate upper receiver doesn't matter. Only the lower receiver is a controlled part and has the gun's serial number. The upper receiver has no more legal status than any other part (barrel, handguard, bolt carrier, etc).

 

[BADUNAME13]

Make sure your Buffer tube will NOT take a stock when in pistol configuration or they can burn you.

 

[madmike]

Thanks. I'll use a dedicated pistol buffer.

Can anyone reference the appropriate legal ruling?

 

[Geno]

DMK:

When did T/C revail in this. The last time I spoke with the folks at T/C they said no-can-do. That was about 2 years back.

I hope and pray this newly posted information is accurate...this would be excellent news! This is why I like the T/Cs. Can you please provide some details Re: the suit?

Greatly appreciated,

Doc2005

 

[DMK]

Google will pull up lots of links on it. Here's a couple:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Company

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-0164.ZO.html


The case basically shoots major holes in the whole "constructive possession" thing. You can own individual parts that 'could' be assembled to make an NFA arm as long as you can put them together in a useful assembly that is not illegal.

Doc, perhaps T/C may have been telling you that you can't make a pistol from a rifle? It has to be a pistol first. That detail was not changed by the decision of this case.

 

[Molon Labe]

Be careful. There's a guy sitting in a Wyoming jail over a similar issue.

He's STILL in jail.

Here's a letter he sent on March 3rd of this year. He sent it to the admin on another forum:

They are holding me currently on one charge of 26 USC SS 5861d (Possession of a firearm not registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record).

In other words, an undercover agent with the ATF bought an upper from me with an 11.5 inch barrel and a lower. The upper and lower were separated. I told him it was a pistol upper and a rifle lower and by law they could not be assembled. I was raided directly after he took possession of said weapon. Confiscated additionally was a 14.5 AR with a Smith Vortex. (They are calling that an unregistered SBR as well. The Vortex was on but not silver soldered, so even though T. O. L. was over 16.1 inches, the lack of solder they say is an unregistered SBR.) They also took two of my Congo FALs because there was no pin to prevent the selector from going into the "A" position. They are saying that "they may be machine guns."

They also took my cell phone and tower to my computer.

Can't afford a "real" attorney, I have a public defender.

Financially, this is hard on my wife. She has lost her regular job trying to help me out. She is working temp jobs.

Any money sent to her will go to phone bills, house bills, power of attorney stuff, commissary, etc.

When I was first arrested, I was moved 4 times in 6 days. As of this writing, I am still in Natrona County Detention Center. I have been denied bond, labeled a potential flight risk, and "anti-government extremist." Grand jury indictment in about two or three weeks. I will be pleading innocent. I am sure "deals" will follow. Right now they are talking 5+ years in the federal pen.

As far as treatment, it's been okay. The ATF and Department of Justice has asked me a lot of questions about "the militia, illegal activities, racism," etc. Told them I don't know. I just like to camp and shoot guns. They asked me about membership levels, etc., manufacture of illegal guns, explosives, etc. Told them I don't know anything about that, and by the beliefs I and many follow, "we do not tolerate illegal activity and no Call to Arms."

I am a proud American. I will not give up my convictions. I am proud to stand beside my brothers.

I will try to write more as funds and envelopes allow. Feel free to post information where appropriate...

If anyone wants to put money on my books, it has to be sent to me as a money order in my name to where you wrote me. If they move me in the meantime, they will send the MO back.

feel free to post what is appropriate. Please keep the faith. I will make it. Right now the financials are hurting of course. My wife said she is sticking this out with me, Praise God!

 

[madmike]

Tragic story.

But yes, an unsoldered SBR is an SBR. And selling a short upper and rifle receiver as one package is dumb.

And that's not the question I asked

 

[wdlsguy]

I just picked up an AR receiver, new, unused, sold by the dealer as "pistol."

Obviously, I must first build this as a pistol and document that.

After that, is it legal to have a spare kit to convert it to a standard over 16" rifle?

Swapping uppers is very easy, but do you really want to be swapping your pistol buffer assembly with a rifle / carbine stock on a regular basis?

Stripped lowers are only $100 or so. I think it makes more sense to have a pistol lower with a pistol upper and a rifle lower with a rifle / carbine upper.

You need to be careful when acquiring uppers and lowers at this point. You wouldn't want to own a pistol lower, a pistol upper, a rifle lower, and no rifle / carbine upper, for example.

 

[Geno]

Better Factually Safe Than Probably Safe

Wow...that poor fella in jail..ugly situation. Re: the combined pistol/long gun, no. T/C used to advertise that you could buy your pistol receiver and use it as a long gun for rifle and shotgun. Then, the BATF intervened and said the receivers have to be declared as either/or, but never as both...not even pistol over to long gun.

I have asked T/C about this several times, and their answer (since the BATF intervention) has been consistent. For my part, I will gladly buy the extra receiver for a mere $220.00 and thus know for fact that I have the proper receivers, and thus avoid any possible conflicts. It simply is not worth the risks.

Doc2005

 

[madmike]

I plan on leaving it as a pistol, mostly. I have enough rifles. Though I don't mind more. It's simply a case of understanding what the law says to avoid trouble.

I can understand TC being cautious, but SCOTUS DID rule in their favor. I gather they don't want more attention or customers getting burned.

The sticking point with TC was that people were building rifles from their pistols...no problem, but THEN they started selling them also as rifles, which could be "converted back." That's when ATF got bent out of shape.

This makes me wonder if I should use screw pins instead of push pins, just to make the receiver a little less accessible.

 

[Duncan223]

I'm completing my first AR pistol build and a friend told me to keep a copy of the 4473 that shows the lower was sold as a pistol. I ordered an Ergo pistol grip with a "trapdoor" and plan on folding the 4473 as small as possible and keeping it the storage space so I never (hopefully) face any JBT/BATF thugs.

 

[madmike]

You might laminate the original and keep it in a safe place, and have a notarized copy with you.

I keep receipts on every firearm, even private purchase when I can, just in case.