Is it old powder of just different lot?

[Lee Q. Loader]

I started loading 9mm about 8 months ago. I've got a load that I like very much because it is very accurate and functions perfectly in my Ruger SR9e and my new Ruger PC Carbine.
My load is 6.0 grains of Herco over a 124 RMR JHP. I developed the Herco load because I had 2 pounds of it that I got from my dad. The powder was in 2 unopened containers and was from the 1980's. They were the cardboard can with the pop up lid. I've used up those 2 pounds and now bought some more Herco. I knew this would be almost like starting over with new powder so I planned on working up to 6.0 grains again. Just to see how the new and old powders compared I dropped the new powder through the measure that had weighed 6.0 grains and weighed the new powder. I expected it to be different but I very surprised to see that the new powder weighed 6.4 grains.

What do you make of this? Was my old powder load more like 6.4 grains of Herco? Is it just the age of the powder?

 

[Jim Watson]

I suspect the old powder had dried out, losing moisture and solvents through the cardboard can. The fresh stuff retains some solvents, increasing the density.
If 6.4 gr is not over the book maximum, I would take the opportunity to compare same volume with same weight.

 

[George P]

Or, it could be the raw components have changed over the years to make the manufacturing process cheaper and easier and the net result is a powder that performs the same but does not weigh the same.

 

[Slamfire]

Or, it could be the raw components have changed over the years to make the manufacturing process cheaper and easier and the net result is a powder that performs the same but does not weigh the same.

I keep on running into individuals who think that gunpowder is sold based on density. It is not. The volume is going to change each and every batch, depending on how it is blended. Gunpowder is blended, similiar to single malt whiskey. And hardly anyone believes that, either. The stuff we buy is blended to a pressure curve and weight. They only guarantee pressures based on weight, not volume, not density, which is mass over volume.

Scotch is blended to a taste. I don't know how they keep the alcohol consistent, but they sure work on keeping the taste similar from barrel to barrel.

 

[Laphroaig]

Gunpowder is blended, similiar to single malt whiskey

Actually, a single malt scotch isn't blended, but is a unique batch from the still that is bottled. A blended scotch is mixed to a uniform taste with several whiskeys, often from different distilleries.

 

[Walkalong]

Your old load was 6.0 Grs of Herco.

Start at 5.5 Grs of the new stuff by weight, work up to 6.0 Grs and see if the velocity/accuracy you had before is there.

Welcome to THR

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

6.4 grains of Herco?

That has been my exact 124 gr. FMJ 'go to' load for 30 years.
Full power without excessive muzzle blast.

The powder was in 2 unopened containers and was from the 1980's. They were the cardboard can with the pop up lid.

I still use and buy the 1/2 lb. tins from the sixties? whenever I find them at a good price.
I've yet to find any Herco with age problems.



JT

 

[George P]

Actually, a single malt scotch isn't blended, but is a unique batch from the still that is bottled. A blended scotch is mixed to a uniform taste with several whiskeys, often from different distilleries.

Yep, single malt is just that - one barrel, not blend form different places.

Powder is blended at the factory to produce a certain set of characteristics consistent from lot to lot along pressure and velocity parameters; especially true for the non-canister stuff shipped to ammo makers.

 

[Slamfire]

Actually, a single malt scotch isn't blended, but is a unique batch from the still that is bottled. A blended scotch is mixed to a uniform taste with several whiskeys, often from different distilleries.

Yep, single malt is just that - one barrel, not blend form different places.

Not everyone agrees with that.

What Is the Difference Between Single Malt and Blended Whisky?

Single Malts vs Blends – Understanding Whisky

 

[Lee Q. Loader]

Thanks for the replies and the warm welcome. Great info on this forum. I'm sure I will benefit from joining.

 

[Laphroaig]

Ah dinnae ken!!

Thanks for posting those links. They dispelled a long held belief that I held.

Thanks for the replies and the warm welcome. Great info on this forum. I'm sure I will benefit from joining.

Yes, a ton of good advice on firearms and life in general! Welcome.

 

[Jack B.]

Whisky and gunpowder now you got my attention!

 

[Slamfire]

Ah dinnae ken!!

Thanks for posting those links. They dispelled a long held belief that I held.
.

The unexamined bottle is not worth having.

 

[rfwobbly]

I like Walkalong's idea.

Since the 1970's production processes have become much more tightly controlled with the use of PLCs. These are basically mini-computers, and are used to control every aspect of a chemical production process down to very precise limits. Basically eliminating any variations caused by humans, and thereby creating a much more uniform product batch to batch.

So powders made in the 70's and 80's are going to vary by a much, much greater degree with today's product, than say a powder made in the year 2000. Your paper canisters date from the earlier (pre-computer) time period, so you'll want to work up your load all over again.

 

[Stumper]

Density (weight to volume) is one of the parameters that powder makers try to maintain from batch to batch....However, up to 10% variation in density was long considered acceptable. It is much more important that pressure/performance by weight be maintained closely since charge tables are based upon weight. They try to keep density close since nearly everyone dispenses by volume. We are SUPPOSED to check the weight. I have little doubt that getting precise performance batch to batch is easier than it used to be and the need for blending batches to get canister grade performance has diminished.
Bottom line, Your old Herco MIGHT be slightly drier than your new batch but the weight difference by volume is within spec. Work it up and see if the performance by weight is the same.

 

[Varminterror]

Actually, a single malt scotch isn't blended, but is a unique batch from the still that is bottled. A blended scotch is mixed to a uniform taste with several whiskeys, often from different distilleries.

“Actually” a single malt scotch moniker only means a single malt type was used. Many batches can be blended for consistency of flavor. Been making booze for way too long to miss that one. Distillers have made a living by intelligently misleading their consumers for generations on generations - it’s not a lie, because it really is what it says it is, but if the consumer is confused about what that really means and they mistakenly think it’s better than it is, all the better...

As for powder - check your velocities with every lot. I typically press 10-30 rounds to check my loads every time I change a powder lot.

 

[buck460XVR]

Whisky and Gunpowder...... now you got my attention!

Sounds like the name of a Bluegrass band!

As for what the difference is, it's anyone's guess, and that's all it would be, without some form of formal chemical testing, a WAG. Even then, without there being some form of control( as in knowing for sure the powder was not contaminated somehow along the way), it would still be theory.

I'm a whiskey guy. Big difference between a single malt and a single barrel whiskey. Still, either can be great or just gutrot. Like powder, what one looks for( and expects) in a quality whiskey, is consistency

 

[Toprudder]

As for what the difference is, it's anyone's guess, and that's all it would be, without some form of formal chemical testing, a WAG.

Not to get too far off topic (but we are talking about whiskey, so what the heck). Years back I competed with model airplanes. Most fuel manufacturers included the percentage of nitromethane on the labels, but one fuel manufacturer only labeled his fuel #1, #2, and #3. No one knew the amounts of nitro, and he wasn't talking. My flying partner happened to work in a lab that had the capability to perform testing on the fuel, and found out that #1 was 18%, and #3 was 40%. That was some good hooch.