Is it possible to pack a CCW that could defeat a body armor wearing assailant?

[Skribs]

You are talking about velocity, but the point is that the energy is going to be the same. Unless the weapon is so heavy to increase the total mass of shooter and weapon to a significantly higher mass than the target, it's not going to make much difference.

You are already failing the test. I didn't venture a type of caliber or gun, but you did (service pistol).

I'm fully aware that a common service pistol won't do this.

It is possible to devise a weapon that will, however.

Even if it is possible to devise a weapon that will knock down the BG but not the shooter, it would have to be a cumbersome weapon (very heavy to absorb enough recoil) that has an incredibly powerful cartridge. In other words, it's not practical to have something capable of this.
Oh, and at the point where you have that powerful of a weapon, it's not going to be easily stopped by armor.

 

[General Geoff]

You can apply Physics to help determine the recoil of a gun.

Bullet Mass × Muzzle Velocity = Gun Mass × Recoil Velocity

There are other factors, such as whether or not the gun has a recoil spring or is ported, but you get the idea.

By your own stated figures, the only way to fire a round that would knock someone down, without yourself being knocked down, is essentially with a mounted weapon or a weapon so massive that nobody could effectively wield it in combat.

The fallacious argument that a bullet hitting something is an equal but opposite reaction to the person firing the bullet is always carried out by those who obviously never took Physics.

You must never have taken Physics if you think this. The gun's mass is an extension of the person's mass, when firing a small (non-mounted) arm. A <15lb firearm does not significantly add to the overall inertial resistance of a 150+lb person being affected by the acceleration of the projectile; The mass of the firearm only reduces the recoil velocity of the firearm in relation to the body part upon which it is being pushed. The body part will absorb the recoil regardless of how sharp or soft the "felt" recoil is.

 

[WinThePennant]

I'm done with this thread.

UNSUBSCRIBING.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Any round hitting a vest is going to feel like taking a baseball bat to the chest. If hit center mass may even knock the wind out. This is from LEO's and military that have taken rounds into armor vest even with ballistic plates.

There are cases of patrol officers, wearing conventional concealable soft body armor, who've been shot squarely in the torso with a 12 gauge shotgun slug, with the vest stopping the slug, and who stayed in the fight.

You cannot expect the bad guy to react to being shot. He may be psychotic and oblivious to being shot, he may be drunk/drugged, he may be acting with sheer determination, etc.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

It is true that the person on the receiving end of a bullet is not experiencing the same thing as a person firing the weapon.

So, the often bantered about notion that you can't knock someone over with a bullet because it would have to knock down the shooter is 100% WRONG.

A bullet with sufficient mass and energy will definitely knock someone down while also leaving the shooter standing on both feet. I'm not going to get into the weeds about which caliber would do that, etc., but suffice it to say that it can be easily done.

I suggest you obtain a copy of the video "Deadly Effects; What Bullets Do to Bodies", and watch the segment where Alexander Jason is shot point blank with a 7.62x51mm FN/FAL while wearing body armor. He gets shot again while he's standing on just one foot to demonstrate the fallacy of "knock down" power.

 

[Prosser]

Shawn:
Always nice to have you showup.

I'd like your opinion on the following theory:
"A factor that is impossible to quantify is the immobilization due to the area of the body that is struck.

In martial arts you can be taught certain areas of the body that are much more susceptible to that agonizing pain that takes people down then others.
The liver, and a number or pressure points that are not taught as firearm targets are points that if struck, can immobilize, at least for a brief time after the strike.

My theory is that bullet strikes near these areas create fluid pressure that can strike the nerve centers near the skin, and cause 'a knock down'.

The larger the bullet meplat, and the larger the caliber, and the higher velocity, the larger the geometric radius around the striking point is going to be. In other words a splash is created when the bullet hits the skin, and like hitting water, surface tension carries ripples of energy away from the impact point.
The bigger the object hitting, the higher the velocity, and creating the waves, the bigger the waves.

As you move up the scale of calibers these factors are increased geometrically. Some areas of your skin, and nervous system are
focused in groups, and are much more sensitive then others.
There are strike points on the biceps, legs, shoulders,back that when struck make that limb temporarily not function.
I believe that a hit close too these points can cause the same effect as a direct strike, provided enough of a surface wave/energy transfer hits the
nerve area. The bigger the circle of impact surface wave, the higher the probability of the hit incapacitating the bad guy, or animal."

http://www.shoshindo.org/Archives/a Jan newsletter09/The Nerve of that Guy.htm

 

[doc2rn]

FN 5.7
S&W 500
The only two that come right to mind that will defeat the class III vest.

 

[Skribs]

Prosser, I know I disagreed with you in another thread (although I wasn't thinking of the TWC affecting nerves in that thread), but since the vest essentially turns the bullet impact into something akin to a strike, I'll agree with you here. However, I wonder how drugs affect the response to these pressure points...

I asked it in another thread, but I'd like to bring it up here (because nobody answered me in that thread, and I don't want to open up yet another thread on body armor right now):
Is there a list of actual crimes that have been commited by armored assailants? The only story I know of where the perps were confirmed to have used body armor, it was the LA bank shootout.

 

[Robert]

Just going around in circles at this point...