is it true, or just myth?

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tark

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I have from more than one source that if you render the bullet immovable, in a 1911, by whatever means, no damage will happen to the gun, when fired, and it will slowly bleed off the pressure. This supposedly works because nothing moves, not the bullet, not the slide, nothing! No movement, no recoil, no impulse.

I simply find this impossible to believe. I maintain the gun will blow up. But, at 68, I am still learning about many things. I tend to base my knowledge on actual experience, the testimony, both spoken and written, of experts in the field, and logic.

The survival of the gun in such an experiment seems to defy all logic. The powder is going to ignite, build up pressure and wildly spike when the bullet stays put. At the very least it seems the case would rupture at the weakest point...

SO..... I want proof. Anybody, give me some kind of proof! A link, a video, the name of a testing organization. Anything!

What I DON'T want is; "Yeah, I tried it and it is true!" I want proof. If a Lab somewhere tried it, I want the name of the lab, or a link to their findings.

I've been wrong before, will be wrong again. But If I Am, i'll admit it.... but I don't think I am wrong now.

Someone prove me wrong....
 
I'm voting kaboom. I suppose it's within the realm of possibility that it could be true, though. Bullets don't make a perfect seal in the barrel, so the gas would bleed off if the gun could contain the initial pressure spike. And 45s don't generate all that much pressure, so...

What I do know is that most pistols will not blow up if you fire on top of a squib. I've seen examples where a pistol barrel had four or five bullets stuck inside it. But in those cases the gun cycled, so any excess pressure flew out the ejection port.
 
Where have you heard this? Anyway, I don't see how it would even be practically possible to simulate, and if you did, you'd have to restrict the slide from moving which isn't at all how a 1911 operates.

You'd need a plugged barrel to make bullet movement impossible and some sort of jig to keep the slide locked in place. The gun would blow as there would be no way to vent the ~20k PSI impulse. The chamber would become a pipe bomb.

You aren't going to find data on it either way I imagine and anyone saying this is an idiot.

Now, if the bullet couldn't move, but the slide could, the pressure would all escape out the ejection port (maybe some down into the mag well). I don't know the interior ballistics in terms of timing, but I imagine pressure would be very high as the gas can't expand into the barrel reducing pressure as the bullet travels, so 100% would go out the back and make things exciting.
 
I could be easily tested by simply plugging the barrel just ahead of the chamber. Ideally, the resulting cavity would closely match the nose profile of the bullet.

Assuming it didn't burst, I agree nothing would happen. There would be no bullet mass moving forward, so no equal-and-opposite force to drive the barrel and slide back. They would not move and not unlock, but just sit there, and hopefully bleed away the pressure over time.

However, in real life the unsupported area of the chamber would surely allow the brass to rupture, if the chamber itself did not fracture.
 
Hate to interject but I have seen several 1911 barrels with bulges in them just like any other firearm, granted the gas and bullet ( or bullets) went somewhere so no kaboom. I have never seen or heard of a 1911 actually coming apart as a result of a stoppage. And I ain't volunteering for a starring role in a UTube production.
 
The issue here is that a great deal of pressure is going to be generated when the powder burns. If it cannot be vented quickly enough by the bullet clearing the barrel - the chamber or the barrel will rupture. Every time - unless you are using an extremely low pressure cartridge. That pressure is not going to be vented if the bullet does not move. It is simple physics. That much pressure will find a way out. You cannot slowly bleed off that much pressure and expect the gun to suffer no damage.
 
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I seem to recall that, when Bugs stuck his finger in Elmer's hunting rifle, the gun exploded.

So, to me, a kaboom it is.


How can anyone dare to challenge that irrefutable, state of the art test ?

Good stuff. I thank you for the chuckle.
 
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I have from more than one source that if you render the bullet immovable, in a 1911, by whatever means, no damage will happen to the gun, when fired, and it will slowly bleed off the pressure. This supposedly works because nothing moves, not the bullet, not the slide, nothing! No movement, no recoil, no impulse.

The premise of the posited mechanism is wrong. All matter is elastic. When subjected to a stress, it deforms so there is no such thing as "nothing moves". The cartridge case and chamber will expand under pressure and will either be sufficient to contain the pressure until they have expanded enough to vent the propellant gasses around the edge of the stationary bullet or through the flash hole by displacing the primer or else it will not be sufficient and will yield causing some sort of so-called "kaboom".

There are too many variables (i.e. age and condition of the gun, type of steel used, how machined, manufacturing tolerances, type of powder, weight of powder, etc.) to reliably predict whether a particular pistol would contain such a discharge, but I can say with certainty that if it did, I would not want to ever try shooting it again.
 
I have heard this from two posters on THIS forum, who I will not name.

The first time I heard about this, the gun was supposedly set up as follows. A steel rod was made , with an indentation that exactly matched the profile of the bullet nose. This was inserted in the bore. The outside of the barrel was threaded and a cap to hold the rod in place was screwed onto the barrel. The gun was fired and the poster claimed nothing happened, except the gun hissed (or whatever) while the pressure leaked off. The gun was supposedly undamaged.

The reason for this was never made clear, but it was said that if the bullet had been allowed to move, even the slightest little bit, disaster would have ensued.

I challenged the most recent poster to provide some form of proof, but all I got was an assertion he had done it....

Still waiting for proof.... If I'm wrong I want to know, so I won't continue to look like an idiot. I've done enough of that already.
 
More genius from Jesus Moses Browning I'm sure.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
the ideas is that without the bullet moving forward, the slide can't move backward, because central pressure in the chamber wont unlock it, and the max pressure of the round is lower than the failure pressure of the lock up. This obviously ignores the fact that the barrel is not fully supported, and will blow out the grips, and whatever is holding them, and the very important fact that when a bullet cant move forward, the pressure continues far past design pressure. That 20,000 PSI will become 100,000 if not allowed to vent, and that will blow it up.
 
Grampajack, if you don't think .45s generate much pressure, google up "1911 blowups" You will see some of the most God-awful destruction ever done to a gun. A 1911 in 45ACP might only operate at 19-21,000 PSI, but with a bore obstruction, that pressure can spike many times that high.

There is one at Les' shop that he keeps around because it is the worst blowup He (or I) have ever seen. The left side of the slide is bulged out and the right; ripped in two and peeled back like a banana, The entire top half of the chamber is gone from the barrel and you can see the bottom half of the case, welded to the barrel. The frame was destroyed as well, bowed out and cracked left of the feed ramp. Ripped might be a better word. Don't know what happened, but the shooter lost an index finger and a thumb.

Gunpowder is a propellant not an explosive, but it can do a pretty good imitation of one with a bore obstruction.
 
Mjsdwash, that's pretty much the way I see it.. Still waiting for someone to provide proof that could be admitted as evidence in a court of law.
 
Grampajack, if you don't think .45s generate much pressure, google up "1911 blowups" You will see some of the most God-awful destruction ever done to a gun. A 1911 in 45ACP might only operate at 19-21,000 PSI, but with a bore obstruction, that pressure can spike many times that high.

There is one at Les' shop that he keeps around because it is the worst blowup He (or I) have ever seen. The left side of the slide is bulged out and the right; ripped in two and peeled back like a banana, The entire top half of the chamber is gone from the barrel and you can see the bottom half of the case, welded to the barrel. The frame was destroyed as well, bowed out and cracked left of the feed ramp. Ripped might be a better word. Don't know what happened, but the shooter lost an index finger and a thumb.

Gunpowder is a propellant not an explosive, but it can do a pretty good imitation of one with a bore obstruction.
I was speaking relatively. I think this myth is centered around the .45 because it's a lower pressure round in what is generally thought to be the toughest pistol in history. Change things up to a 10mm Glock and no one would believe it for a second. With the 1911, though, you want to call BS, but then you have to stop and think for a minute, what if?

I imagine the myth was started by someone trying to prove that the 1911 is the only pistol worth shooting and you're stupid if you have anything else. I've seen debates where people come up with all kinds of wild stuff to support their emotional attachment to one platform or another. "Well my great grandfather carried a 1911 in WWI, and it took a Nazi's head clean off at 100 yards..." You know the type.

All I want to know is, if it works, does it sound like a giant fart?
 
I think You would bulge the barrel but the pressure would blow out by breach, if you look on YouTube for trying to blow up a Hi Point C9 they tried several times to make it go kaboom and it finally did when they drove a bolt in barrel then filled the barrel up with black powder and took a c-clamp to lock slide down and used a casing with only a primer to set it off,
It split the barrel and blew slide off and I think split the frame.

I don't think I would try just to see.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FoWpog5KU4
That is the single stupidest thing I have ever seen. Absolute crime against engineering. Not completely relevant here, since the Hi Point is a blowback gun, and they're relying on a freaking hose clamp to keep everything together. Call me crazy, but I think Browning could do better than that ;)

Oh yeah, and the welding mask & apron with fingerless gloves & bare forearms was nice touch :banghead:

The reason for this was never made clear, but it was said that if the bullet had been allowed to move, even the slightest little bit, disaster would have ensued.
A body in motion stays in motion, a body at rest stays at rest, therefore the bullet never moves; it is not the bullet you must move, but yourself :p. No, a body moves if a force is applied --such as the pressure in a breech-- and can apply a force itself if it contacts another body that resists its motion. When a bullet is allowed to accelerate before reaching an obstruction, it gains sufficient kinetic energy (or momentum, they're all the same in the end), that when its motion is resisted by a stationary object, the force imparted to both bullet & obstruction is sufficient to violently deform the bullet outward against the barrel walls. So not only is pressure acting on the walls (likely higher than normal, since gas expansion to lower pressures cannot occur) but the pressure of the crashed bullet driven to expand by its own accumulated kinetic energy (or momentum, or inertia, they're all the same).

So violent is the collision of the bullet even after a short period of movement (the acceleration of a bullet is incredible, and high velocities can be reached in a mere fraction of an inch) that the material properties/strength of the solid lead are brutally exceeded beyond resistance, and it essentially becomes a fluid, squishing outward equally in all directions. The deforming metal is actually liquified in the areas where there is the most deformation (the atoms in the crystal matrix scrambled like a DQ Blizzard) and a tremendous amount of heat is evolved in the process of breaking those crystal lattice bonds. Eventually, the bullet has completely conformed to the gap between the obstruction and the breech pressure driving it, and can no longer dissipate any of its kinetic energy by deforming & breaking the atomic bonds of its crystal lattice structure. At that point, the only place for the kinetic energy to go is directly into the materials resisting it, heating the obstruction and barrel walls rapidly (and IIRC, isotropically, meaning a near-perfect heat transfer) potentially to the point of critically weakening or even melting them.

So, you have the following acting on your poor barrel;
-Elevated breech pressure (likely not higher than peak for most obstructions down the barrel a ways)
-Compression of the slug being driven outward
-Thermal energy dump from remaining kinetic energy

The barrel can then dissipate these forces one of several ways;
-Elastic deformation (flexing those atomic bonds in its crystal lattice structure, momentarily)
-Plastic deformation (tearing those atomic bonds, but reforming them immediately in a permanently shifted configuration --a goose egg swell)
-Phase change (not necessarily melting, but the decomposition of carbon/iron crystal structures that give steel its great strength)
-Rupture (permanent, catastrophic tearing of crystalline atomic bonds, cascading through the grain boundaries of the metal)

Both elastic and plastic deformation generate heat (the latter much more so), that heat is what precipitates phase change, that phase change rapidly degrades the threshold at which the other failure modes occur.

So the real killer is ultimately heat, unless you're talking a detonation or something that goes straight to rupture (think 357 cylinder kaboom). The main contributor to that thermal load, is the kinetic energy portion of the equation. Obviously the pressure and solid-lead expansion are not sufficient to damage the barrel, since the at-rest bullet is initially acted upon by a pressure that rivals the ultimate peak pressure attained, when everything is operating properly. It is not until the bullet is having to fight its own kinetic energy that it is pushed outward to the point of failure, as seen every time a bullet strikes a rigid target.

It would be interesting to try to isolate these effects, to see which causes failure first (i.e. which is the strongest in a squib situation).
-Fire bullet into a cavity matching its profile cut into a thick-walled cylinder at higher velocities until deformation & rupture (and compare to internal ballistic velocity profile of barrel to determine when KE alone will cause a rupture from obstruction)
-Fire blank cartridge in obstructed barrel at higher pressures until failure (and compare to internal pressure profile of normal charges at different squib locations to determine how close the stuck bullet must be to the new one for this failure mode to dominate)
-Compress lead bullet inside barrel section between tight-fitting hydraulic rams slowly until rupture (compare to velocity and pressure charts, together with results of experiment 1 & a lot of math & metallurgical knowledge, and I think it should be possible to separate the breech pressure, bullet swage pressure, and pure thermal effects as they contribute to failure, so you could see how each stacks up for a squib located anywhere along the barrel)

I know for a fact the kinetic energy effects will be lowest at the chamber-end, to the point they are near-zero for the rigid-bullet scenario posited in the OP.

Someone else do this for their dissertation :cool:

Oh, and sorry to everyone that it isn't a super-simple explanation ("the bullet melts the barrel" is potentially an accurate way to describe it, but it also omits a lot) but high energy plastic impact mechanics with multi-phase effects is serious super-science, that I can really only guess at (seems more complicated than hypersonic aerothermochemistry, I'll put it that way)

TCB

PS- this also explains how/why heavy, hard, fast moving projectiles like DU APFSDS are so hard to stop with conventional armor; all that heat energy dissipated by squishing the bullet or squeezing outward is resisted by the projectile material's own strength, leaving every last bit of that kinetic energy to be focused straight ahead, dumping an extremely high value of kinetic energy (because of the great sectional density of rigid rod-penetrators) into the target material at such an excruciating rate (4000fps is darn near instantaneous when it comes to how fast steel can conduct heat away safely) that the plate armor is simultaneous melted & punched through by whatever part of the penetrator hasn't vaporized under the stresses itself. It makes total sense that the only thing that could possibly react fast enough, and with enough force, to slow or stop the demonic thing is a high explosive pointed in the opposite direction (reactive armor plate)
 
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I will say this. A stock 1911 can be converted to 460 Rowland off the shelf. They don't last for very long, but they don't blow up either. That's 40k psi in a pistol barrel, and they consider it safe enough to sell to the general public without getting sued.
 
I think You would bulge the barrel but the pressure would blow out by breach
Part of this depends on the case, ultimately. Brass liquefies at like 90ksi if I remember correctly, so it should be possible to design a breech that locks strong enough and supports the brass case head well enough up to and slightly beyond this point without catastrophic failure (though with really gross looking brass, I'd reckon)

Where's Clark? He has to have done something at least this crazy with his CZ52 and Tokarev experiments (I thought one of them was a fixed plug in a Tokarev + some ungodly reckless volume of Blue Dot that did not result in breech failure, but brass failure :confused:)

TCB
 
I will say this. A stock 1911 can be converted to 460 Rowland off the shelf. They don't last for very long, but they don't blow up either. That's 40k psi in a pistol barrel, and they consider it safe enough to sell to the general public without getting sued.

Yup, and it's not the sudden acceleration & pressure that kills the slides/frames, but the sudden stop once the thing picks up steam ;)

Slide hammer vs. pressing down with your hand; which drives a stake faster, which upsets the metal at the strike-face?

TCB
 
Yup, and it's not the sudden acceleration & pressure that kills the slides/frames, but the sudden stop once the thing picks up steam ;)

Slide hammer vs. pressing down with your hand; which drives a stake faster, which upsets the metal at the strike-face?

TCB
Ha, yep. Like what they say about skydiving. It's not the fall that kills you.
 
I don't trust my memory on this, maybe someone else can confirm. But IIRC Ruger tested their P85 by completely blocking the barrel and firing a round without blowing up the gun. That was 30+ years ago and I may be wrong. But I think they did that as a means of demonstrating how tough they were.
 
I have from more than one source that if you render the bullet immovable, in a 1911, by whatever means, no damage will happen to the gun, when fired, and it will slowly bleed off the pressure. This supposedly works because nothing moves, not the bullet, not the slide, nothing! No movement, no recoil, no impulse.

I simply find this impossible to believe. I maintain the gun will blow up. But, at 68, I am still learning about many things. I tend to base my knowledge on actual experience, the testimony, both spoken and written, of experts in the field, and logic.

The survival of the gun in such an experiment seems to defy all logic. The powder is going to ignite, build up pressure and wildly spike when the bullet stays put. At the very least it seems the case would rupture at the weakest point...

SO..... I want proof. Anybody, give me some kind of proof! A link, a video, the name of a testing organization. Anything!

What I DON'T want is; "Yeah, I tried it and it is true!" I want proof. If a Lab somewhere tried it, I want the name of the lab, or a link to their findings.

I've been wrong before, will be wrong again. But If I Am, i'll admit it.... but I don't think I am wrong now.

Someone prove me wrong....
You mean the POWDER is still burning with the bullet stuck in the chamber (no forward movement?)

Heck man, it will blow sky high. Why? The pressures of that powder burning will be HUGE. Not 19k PSI but way way up all cause no space for the expanding gasses to go while more powder burns.

Deaf
 
How far down the barrel is the bullet before the powder is engulfed completely? What is the pressure like at that point? One could then easily calculate the rough "fixed bullet" pressure level by examining the difference in available volume for the two. Since there is no movement, the rate of powder burn is likely to have no effect on the peak pressure, either, unlike the case for a moving bullet (since I understand all nitro powders have roughly the same energy content & make the same gas volume)

TCB
 
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