Is it worth it to get a C & R license?

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I am just a few months less the expiration of my second C&R license. I used mine extensively the 1st 3 year period and did a lot of buying. As others have said it really neat to have a handgun delivered to your door. My license came up for renewal and I said why not. To make a long story short, I am 2 1/2 years into my second license and haven't used it one time. I have a couple of guns that made it all worthwhile but I won't renew it this time. Too little disposable income and a non-understanding wife.
 
It's worth it for several reasons. First, you can buy C&R guns. Second, you can ship guns...many of the shippers are demanding to see a license of some sort. Third, you can get discounts from some distributors. $10/year is pathetically cheap.
 
Capybara said:
I just let my FFL03 lapse so that means I have had it for three years. It is well worth it, IF, you want to collect. It is too easy to go nuts and buy a lot of C&R guns though, it is a taste of freedom that we in California, rarely get. I can still have C&R long guns shipped to my door but now we have to self-register them and pay the CADOJ $19.00 to do so. C&R handguns also have to go through an FFL01.

So for me, I have built my collection, the safe is full and I enjoy owning and shooting a lot of C&Rs. But as usual, California has basically taken all of the fun out of just being able to collect, having to fill out a form and self-register and pay means I am done with having an FFL03. If you live in a free state, where you can receive C&R long guns and hand guns, yes, I would definitely get one. C&Rs are a blast.

Simonstough, a gun is eligible if it is 50 years or older OR is listed in the ATF's C&R guide. Google it and make sure you also look at the 2010 addendum also. There are plenty of C&R guns that are newer than 50 years old. The Radom P64 comes to mind, the CZ82, etc. There are also lots of those lame commemorative guns that are C&R also, Albanian SKS from the 70s, etc.
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Yeah, I am in Utah. According to the Brady Campaign, we are one of the worst states in the union:) which is why we have the 4th lowest homicide rate. I didn't even realize CA had mandatory registration. CA is a beautiful state, and I wouldn't mind living there, if it were a free state.

I travel fairly regularly to NY state, and have many friends there. One was trying to convince me to move there. I may have slightly offended him when I referred to NY as a serf state. :uhoh:

Oh well. Good info there.


Thanks for all the replies! The gist of them seem to be that a C&R license is worth it if I have the $$$$$ to do some collecting.
 
Brownells offers a pretty hefty discount to all classes of FFL licensees including C&R.
 
It really depends on what you want it for. I found myself wanting an M1 Garand. When I had the license 2004-2007, I found that A.) very few dealers would ship to 03 license holders and B.) CMP had Garands cheaper in the first place.

I didn't renew it. Post-SAFE Act in NYS, most transfers have to go through an 01 FFL anyway.
 
I have had my C&R for many years and have no intention of letting it go. $10 a year is less than a couple of packs of cigarettes IF I smoked. Nickel dime stuff. Record keeping is no more than you should do anyway to cover your butt. My collection varies from military to Remington Bolt .22's and now mostly Stevens Single Shots that are almost all C&R guns. Most are from Gunbroker. Since I am in Illinois it lets me avoid the waiting period and background check at gunshows. I am right across the river from St, Louis so I can deal their also. Some dealers won't take it but that is their loss. Not for everyone but a bargain for me. If I use it once every year or two I would still keep it for $10 a month.
 
Anything at least fifty years old is a C&R.
I've been indulging myself in shooter-grade Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers. Browning and Savage shotguns. Winchester and Marlin lever guns. H&Rs of all type.
There lots of non military guns that are c&r. Being able to save on shipping and transfer fees makes them affordable. I'm not looking for safe queens or investment grade guns, just things I can enjoy and shoot. That means good pictures and description is ok for me.
Some dealers refuse to ship to 03s. Well, I guess I shop elsewhere, since I'm not wanting specific guns, just exemplars.
 
If I got a C&R, I'm afraid wifey would hunt y'all down, after she hid my body.:eek:
 
No, I have not read the earlier responses ...

Is it worth it to get a C & R license?
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I mailed my 1st 03FFL app in 2001.

With the initial license and every renewal, I knew that it would be "paid for" with my first C&R purchase on each license.

So, yeah, as long as you buy at least one or two C&R firearms during the 3-year period of the license, it is worth it.

O'course, you may end up with a LOT of C&R firearms ... I sure have. ;)
 
cc-hangfire said:
Example 3: I see a Mosin at my local pawn shop that is a C&R firearm. I buy it but - since they are a FFL in my state - they make me fill out the 4437 form and enter the sale in their log. No extra fees paid, and since I did not use my C&R to acquire the rifle, I am not required to enter it into my record book (but I could if I felt the need).
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Two things. First, you shouldn't need to fill out a 4473 or do a background check in most states. The gun store can log it out and transfer directly to you.
Second, even if you fill out a 4473, you must log a C&R firearm into your book.
 
If you are serious about using firearms as an investment, I don't think a C&R FFL will make much difference.

The way to do it is to pick up seriously valuable firearms, or firearms you expect to greatly appreciate in value, which may require a transfer.

If by investment, you mean a Mosin and a Makarov now and then, you'd save a bit on transfers and sometimes shipping, but have to bother with a bound book.
 
cc-hangfire :

Example 3: I see a Mosin at my local pawn shop that is a C&R firearm. I buy it but - since they are a FFL in my state - they make me fill out the 4437 form and enter the sale in their log. No extra fees paid, and since I did not use my C&R to acquire the rifle, I am not required to enter it into my record book (but I could if I felt the need).
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Absolutely, positively, 100% wrong.
As 03FFL's are issued to a person, you as an individual are licensed. Every C&R eligible firearm you acquire BY ANY MEANS must be recorded in your bound book. It will be this way until your 03FFL expires.

Whether you exchanged FFL copies with the seller is immaterial.
 
dogtown tom said:
Absolutely, positively, 100% wrong.
As 03FFL's are issued to a person, you as an individual are licensed. Every C&R eligible firearm you acquire BY ANY MEANS must be recorded in your bound book. It will be this way until your 03FFL expires.

Whether you exchanged FFL copies with the seller is immaterial.
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tom (of course) is correct.

Every C&R eligible firearm you acquire or dispose of while holding an 03FFL must be entered into your Acquisitions and Dispositions Book.

I already owned a Mosin Nagant Rifle before I got my 03FFL, so that did not need to be entered when I received my license, although I could have if I wanted to.

Two years later, after buying a nicer Mosin, I sold the first one to my nephew. At that time, I was required to enter that rifle into my A&D Bound Book as an Acquisition from my previous private collection, and then as a Disposition to my nephew with all the appropriate information.

When my 03FFL expired after three years, I was not required to do anything. Since a C&R Collector is not in the business of buying / selling firearms, no records are turned over to the BATFE, or anyone (at least here in Illinois) when the license period ends and it is not renewed.

For me, the benefits of having an 03FFL C&R Collector's License far outweighed any hassles involved. Along with the CZ82s, the Mosin Nagants, the SKS, and the Walther P.38s I bought, just having one nice S&W Model 15 Revolver (what a trigger, and adjustable sights!) dated from the late 1950s come to my front door made the $30 fee and the paperwork all worthwhile.
 
Man oh man, asking y'all if I should get a C&R license was probably like going into a bar and asking if I should order a beer. :D

Now I really want something that I hadn't even considered getting a month ago. I guess that's another $30 out the door! :rolleyes:
 
Regarding my earlier post about record book entry of firearms acquired by legal means that do not utilize your license, it is a subject of great & heated debate. As a licensed C&R you must make your own decision. For more info, do a search over on http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com. If you enter every C&R firearm you own, regardless of how it is acquired, into your bound record that is completely fine and is the most prudent course. I have never seen BATF guidance that requires that.

The key as I understand it is in section 478.41 - a C&R license entities the holder to acquire in interstate commerce, and only apply to transactions related to use of that license (you don't use your license to acquire an old gun where form 4437 is used).

Confusion comes from reading paragraph 478.125(f) as a stand alone without considering 478.41(c) & (d), and from ignoring the definition of collector as defined by the regulations.

If you want some boring reading, here goes from the AFT web site:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=70394195a3edf623eba7ce77a1bddff1&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&rgn=div5

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

Subpart B—Definitions
Collector. Any person who acquires, holds, or disposes of firearms as curios or relics.
Licensed collector. A collector of curios and relics only and licensed under the provisions of this part.

Subpart D—Licenses
§478.41 General.
(c) Each person seeking the privileges of a collector licensed under this part shall file an application, with the required fee (see §478.42), with ATF in accordance with the instructions on the form (see §478.44), and pursuant to §478.47, receive from the Chief, Federal Firearms Licensing Center, the license covering the collection of curios and relics. A separate license may be obtained for each collection premises, and such license shall, subject to the provisions of the Act and other applicable provisions of law, entitle the licensee to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other person licensed under the provisions of this part, for the period stated on the license.
(d) The collector license provided by this part shall apply only to transactions related to a collector's activity in acquiring, holding or disposing of curios and relics. A collector's license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act or this part. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector bring the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer under this part, he shall qualify as such. (See also §478.93 of this part.)

Subpart F—Conduct of Business
§478.93 Authorized operations by a licensed collector.
The license issued to a collector of curios or relics under the provisions of this part shall cover only transactions by the licensed collector in curios and relics. The collector's license is of no force or effect and a licensed collector is of the same status under the Act and this part as a nonlicensee with respect to (a) any acquisition or disposition of firearms other than curios or relics, or any transportation, shipment, or receipt of firearms other than curios or relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and (b) any transaction with a nonlicensee involving any firearm other than a curio or relic. (See also §478.50.) A collectors license is not necessary to receive or dispose of ammunition, and a licensed collector is not precluded by law from receiving or disposing of armor piercing ammunition. However, a licensed collector may not dispose of any ammunition to a person prohibited from receiving or possessing ammunition (see §478.99(c)). Any licensed collector who disposes of armor piercing ammunition must record the disposition as required by §478.125 (a) and (b).
§478.101 Record of transactions.
Every licensee shall maintain firearms and armor piercing ammunition records in such form and manner as is prescribed by subpart H of this part.

Subpart H—Records
§478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.
(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. (1) Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a driver's license), and note on the record the method used.
(g) Commercial records of firearms received. When a commercial record is held by a licensed dealer or licensed collector showing the acquisition of a firearm or firearm curio or relic, and such record contains all acquisition information required by the bound record prescribed by paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, the licensed dealer or licensed collector acquiring such firearm or curio or relic, may, for a period not exceeding 7 days following the date of such acquisition, delay making the required entry into such bound record: Provided, That the commercial record is, until such time as the required entry into the bound record is made, (1) maintained by the licensed dealer or licensed collector separate from other commercial documents maintained by such licensee, and (2) readily available for inspection on the licensed premises: Provided further, That when disposition is made of a firearm or firearm curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of this paragraph, the licensed dealer or licensed collector making such disposition shall enter all required acquisition information regarding the firearm or firearm curio or relic in the bound record at the time such transfer or disposition is made.

In conclusion, the BATF can decide if I'm absolutely wrong. I'll be the only one responsible in that case.
 
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cc-hangfire Regarding my earlier post about record book entry of firearms acquired by legal means that do not utilize your license, it is a subject of great & heated debate. As a licensed C&R you must make your own decision. For more info, do a search over on http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com. If you enter every C&R firearm you own, regardless of how it is acquired, into your bound record that is completely fine and is the most prudent course. I have never seen BATF guidance that requires that.
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Did you read what you posted above?
§478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.
(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. (1) Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics.
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Note that it says "each receipt and disposition"......not just the ones YOU think need to be entered.;)




The key as I understand it is in section 478.41 - a C&R license entities the holder to acquire in interstate commerce,
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Reading only one part of ATF regulation is pretty darn foolish.





and only apply to transactions related to use of that license (you don't use your license to acquire an old gun where form 4437 is used).
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478.41 says no such thing. In fact, 478.125 clearly states the exact opposite.






In conclusion, the BATF can decide if I'm absolutely wrong. I'll be the only one responsible in that case.
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ATF already has decided you are wrong, you just choose to ignore the applicable regulation.
 
Hi dogtown. You have an opinion, I have an opinion. You're responsible for your bound book, I'm responsible for mine. Don't care to debate.

The OP asked if getting a C&R license is worth it. It can be, but you will need to read all the regulations and keep your own paperwork.
 
My opinion is based on a lot of research. I understand dogtown is an FFL; no disrespect intended. For a different opinion from another FFL who asked BATF see:

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/another-bound-book-question.108678/

You can find plenty of discussions online on the two interpretations; as I said, it is a subject of great & heated discussion.

My profession requires reading and applying federal, local, and state laws and regulations on a routine basis. Each set of regulations sets the limits of jurisdiction and application in the initial paragraphs and sections, as well as the definitions. Those earlier sections filter C&R transactions requiring records to only those utilizing ones C&R license (IMHO).

I understand the ramifications of being wrong. If anyone is uncertain in their individual understanding, you can log everything or you could check with ATF.
 
In my six months, it's definitely worth it. Don't forget, you can get a discount at Brownell's as well... not huge, but it'll pay for itself over three years for sure, even if you don't buy a C&R.
 
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