Is it worthwhile for me to get a carry permit?

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TheLastBoyScout

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Well right now I'm an 18 year old Pennsylvanian.

PA issues permits at 21, but NH has reciprocity, and issues non-resident permits at 18. Would it be worthwhile for me to apply for one?

I have no intention of ever visiting NH.
If I were ever stopped, would I be in trouble because I'm younger than 21? or would the fact that I've got a good permit cover me?

Some things worth knowing:

Right now I'm in HS... Carry in an HS is a big bad no-no, so theres no way in hell I'd be carrying most of the time.

I'm fairly competent with my sidearm of choice, but it is pretty big, and I'm only 5'10" 125lbs.

I will be leaving the state for college next year. None of the states I could be headed to (SC, VA, and MD) have reciprocity with PA or NH, and in any case, I'd be required to live on campus all 4 years, so no personal weapons could come along.

The only reasons' I'd have to get the permission slip are:

1) To drive my dad's van with weapons and ammo in the back-- since there is no "trunk" this is illegal in PA without a permit.

2) To have it.

3) To avoid having to pay PICS/NICS fees.


So should I try it?



PS- Looking on Packing.org, they say I need a CCW or FOID from another state to get a NH non-resident permit... Is there anyway around it? (my state doesn't have an FOID) or was that restriction put in to stop people from doing what I'm thinking about doing?
 
I would say not to bother with it. Being that your only 18, and in HS, with plans of going to college, I would say don't bother. Personally, I think that 18 is way too young (I'm only 20). Graduate from HS, goto college, get a few years behind you (turn 21), and re-assess the situation.

At 18, and in HS, you probably still don't have the mindset to carry. Lets face it.. HS is a very immature place, and reguardless of your individual maturity, it does rub off on you. Not to mention, waiting to turn 21 gives you 3 years to get your hormones under control.

Also, you have to see how your lifestyle would react with CCW. Being away from home and in college, are you going to be partying alot, or drinking, or anything else that impares judgement? If you are in non-criminal protection zones that would allow you to have your CCW, would you have the maturity to assess that your life is truly in threat?

I'm not trying to be critical to you. I'm just saying to enjoy your last year of high school and adapt to college life, and reassess if CCW is for you when you turn 21.

I'm only 20, I plan on getting my CCW in late 2005 when I turn 21. But I'm getting it to get it, and to have the ability to carry. But I also realize it will be a very large responsibity to have. I'm a full time college student, I have about a 0% social life (I'm an intravert - INTJ personality, plus college takes up alot of time [I made Deans list all 5 quarters I've been here]).

Just enjoy school and do your best to keep you nose clean, and out of situations you would benefit from CCW.

Cyanide_357
 
Last I heard NH required a PA resident permit prior to issueing a NH non-resident permit. Furthermore, I am not sure whether a NH non-resident permit will allow one to carry in PA the way the reciprocity agreement is worded. Finally, even if recognized in PA, a NH non-resident permit would have to comply with PA regulations that require one to be 21. While I doubt that anything can be done, they are very friendly at the office and you should give them a call. Leave a message, they will call back.

Regarding your point #3--the way things work in Pennsylvania, I believe that a PA (or any state's non-resident) permit will not exempt a buyer from having to go through the NICS and paying the fee when buying.

Generally speaking, packing.org has very accurate information so if you have found the legal facts (or requirements) stated on their site, checking elsewhere will rarely yield contradicting information.
 
Yeah why not? It is cheap and it will save you time later on. How often is the renewal period?

Also, many states are currently pushing for CCW reform, so there might be reciprocity in MD before you know it.
 
I'd say no.

I'm in college too, but I live off-campus, thankfully. I plan on getting my CCW as soon as I turn 21. If you're ready to carry at 21, you were probably ready to carry at 18...It all depends on maturity and mindset.
 
Even if you could get the NH permit, you would still have to comply with PA law (21+ to carry concealed). Sorry to disappoint you. Nice try at beating the system though.

And PA License to Carry used to serve as a background check in the old days, but not anymore. All it's good for now is concealed carry. Everyone pays for instant check.

So save your money, go off to college, three years will pass before you know it. Apply for your permit then, when you're 21 and home on break. Of course right now, three years seems like an awfully long time to you. Take it from us older f***s here who have a little more perspective, three years is a blink of an eye.

RE: College

Focus on doing the absolute best you can while there. Keep this in mind: the better you do, the more likely you are to get a better-paying job after graduating, which means you'll have more money to feed your gun habit. How's that for motivation?:evil:
 
1) To drive my dad's van with weapons and ammo in the back-- since there is no "trunk" this is illegal in PA without a permit.


You do not need a trunk to transport weapons. The only requirement is that the ammunition and weapon be carried in seperate containers.
 
The bigger question in my mind, and something I didn't see brought up, is the reasoning behind why you would want a carry permit? To me that is of bigger importance, first, than 'how can I get it'.
 
Folks, here is what the law actually SAYS.

Even if you could get the NH permit, you would still have to comply with PA law (21+ to carry concealed). Sorry to disappoint you. Nice try at beating the system though.
Click to expand...

*Buzz* Wrong.

The law states that a person who possesses a license to carry a firearm from a state that they have an agreement with my carry in the state. Note that this does not differentiate between resident and non-resident.

You can contact the AG's office, but they have stated that if you have a permit from a state, you can carry. No differentiation on dates, residency, nothing. You can be a PA resident, but carry on a Florida CWFL. Now that NH has a reciprocity agreement, you can get a permit from NH if you possess a permit from any other state (they also recently changed the rule from requiring a home state permit).

Even better, there is evidence that the New Hamsphire state police will recognize a "Pennsylvania Sportsman's Firearms License" as a "license from any other state. You can get one of those at 18 years old.

Now, the wording of the reciprocity agreement on "residents only" is binding only on New Hampshire. Why? Because New Hampshire law requires that you be a resident of the state that you're licensed from to be able to carry there on one of the licenses that NH recognizes. Pennsylvania does not have this clause in their law.

What do I have for evidence on this?

First, there was a bill introduced last session to do away with the SSN requirement for getting a permit (already in violation of 7USC552 on SSN privacy), but it's a "deal". Us gunowners would have lost something. That is, the ability to carry in PA on an out of state permit, even as a resident.

Now, if out of state permits were not legal to carry on for residents, why would there be a need for this bill?

Read the provisions of Pennsylvania's License to Carry Firearms Law here:

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA6109.html

So Pennsylvania's law is similar to Missouri's, you may not be able to apply for a permit until a high age (in MO's case, 23), but you can carry before that age on an out of state permit.

Btw, the provisions of "transfer", which are pretty onerous for private face to face transactions, do not apply between parent and child and spouses. You can read through the UFA law I posted above and confirm it for yourself.

So, get yourself a Sportsman's permit, and then send a copy of that along with a completed application from NH to the state police along with $20. And then, you can carry in PA.
 
Do it. Why not? What's the down side?

I was more mature at 16 than many 40 year olds. (I'm 42 now.) I got a commercial driver's license when I turned 18. Just because I could. Never needed it; but I had it in case I ever did. Getting a permit doen't mean you will carry concealed. It just means you can -- and the other benefits you already recognized.

But be careful. There are many chronological age bigots out there and chronological age bigotry is legal (at least at the low end of the scale).
 
At 18... you probably still don't have the mindset to carry.
Click to expand...

WildAlaska is robaby the most right about that statement. Just because my neighbors aren't responsible to carry, doesn't mean me or other neighbors (I'm in a college dorm with predominatly 18 and 19 yr olds) aren't.

If I ever were to get one, it would be to be able to carry a pistol in the car whereever I want to. Technically, that's not legal in MI, even if it is cased properly and stored correctly.

Another reson would be if I am ever hunting, and it rains, I could stick my gun under a coat or something.

Yet another reason would be to be able to impulse buy pistols in MI (no need for a purchase permit with a CCW permit)

Or, to protect from bears in the college parking lot (CCW Legal in parking lot, but not in dorm) or while I am fishing. But that's another story.
 
The bigger question in my mind, and something I didn't see brought up, is the reasoning behind why you would want a carry permit? To me that is of bigger importance, first, than 'how can I get it'.
Click to expand...


Basically I want one becauseit sort of annoys me that I'm old enough to carry a gun to defend my country (right now I'm in the pipeline for a service academy or ROTC program), but the government would deny me the right to do so for self defense in my home state.
 
So, get yourself a Sportsman's permit, and then send a copy of that along with a completed application from NH to the state police along with $20. And then, you can carry in PA.

I'm definitely going to try that, too, after e-mailing or calling the NH state police to make sure a Sportsman's permit is good enough.

Can you please link to PA's reciprocity laws, so I can print them out? I can't seem to find them, and a printout of related laws might be a good thing to carry along with the license.

Main problem will be convincing my ultra-liberal parents that I actually need a gun, despite telling them all about a near-assault that occurred last year. Problem #2 will be finding an acceptable handgun for under $200. Maybe a used .38 or 9mm.
 
Late so I didn't read the other responses but I'm pretty sure in order to get a permit in NH, you need one in your state of residence.
 
PA Sportsman License must be carried in conjunction with a valid PA hunting and/or fishing license, and you can only carry while hunting or fishing. It is good for no other reason.

I doubt they will honor it the same was a CCW would be.
 
I just got off the phone with the NH state police. According to the officer I talked to, a PA Sportsman's Pistol Permit should (not "will," so it might not a 100%, but I'd say chances are good) meet NH's requirement of an existing CCW permit, since it does allow you to carry concealed under certain circumstances. Where's the thumbs-up smiley?
 
Apparently Maine issues non-resident CHLs to 18 year olds. This should be sufficient to get a New Hampshire non-resident CHL.

However, I can only imagine the response an 18 year old Pennsylvania resident would get from a Pennsylvania LEO if he were found to be carrying on a non-resident New Hampshire license. Do you really want to be the test case?
 
However, I can only imagine the response an 18 year old Pennsylvania resident would get from a Pennsylvania LEO if he were found to be carrying on a non-resident New Hampshire license. Do you really want to be the test case?
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Why not? The law is the law is the law, you know? You have the St. Louis City and County PD's running around saying that out of state permits are not valid in those areas, even though they've been called on it as flat out lying.

Test case? If it gets to that point where a cop is ignoring a letter of the Attorney General Office, the clear provisions of the reciprocity statute, and a NH reciprocity agreement that PA signed in good faith with that state, then whoever arrests said 18 year old, along with his department, will be in a world of hurt legally and financially. Sometimes you need to stop being scared of the what ifs and just say "Screw it" and deal with the consequences. Let them arrest you, let a judge have you let go, and then sue the living #@$# out of the department.
 
Well, in my case I'm actually 19 and some months, but that's not a lotta difference in this case.

Other than that, concealed is concealed, and PA law does not require you to disclose that you are carrying a firearm to a cop under most circumstances.

And, in the unlikely event that I become the "test case," whether or not I decide to sue afterwards would depend entirely on my treatment by the police. If most of the officer(s) involved were mostly courteous, and willing to admit they were wrong in a reasonable time frame (less than one day), I wouldn't have much of a problem. But if they decide to treat me like some kind of criminal just because they don't know the law... err, I still don't think I could sue very effectively, since, being a poor college student (and having spent all my money on a handgun by that point) all's I could afford would be a public defender.


I think a much more fun "test case" would be to carry a sawed-off double-barrel shotgun and see if cops are aware of PA's wacky definition of a "firearm" with reguards to the Concealed Firearm License (and other legislature). "Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches." I don't think there have been any court rulings on sawed-offs.

Similarly, since PA law says it's only illegal to carry concealed one of those types of "firearm," a full-sized rifle or shotgun (or pistol over 26" :eek: ) should be legal to carry concealed and on foot, in theory. I don't recall any rulings on that, either.

Plus, there's a clause which states that firearms and other weapons can be carried on public school property. "It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose" (emphasis added). According to Packing.org, there are no court rulings on that, so I actually have a source this time.

And offensive weapons, such as blackjacks, brass knuckles, and switchblades. "This section shall not apply to any person who makes, repairs, sells or otherwise deals in, uses or possesses any firearm for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth." No rulings that I've been able to find, and that particular usage of the word firearm has a different definition: "Any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon."

I guess my point is that there are already a lot of those laws and things that most police officers probably don't know, but people have apparently not been arrested for them yet. Or... no one has really read those laws, and people have been unjustly imprisoned. Better part of valor, or ignorance all around? Wish I knew.
 
Other than that, concealed is concealed, and PA law does not require you to disclose that you are carrying a firearm to a cop under most circumstances.
Click to expand...

You don't have to disclose anything. However, would your firearm be unnoticed for a Terry Stop?
 
I don't plan on looking or acting suspicious enough for a Terry Stop. But if a cop decides to, they'd find it pretty easily, right on my hip. At which point I'd have some 'splaining to do, and hopefully would end with myself and the officer going our seperate ways. I've been told I look like I'm 25, so he/she might not even look at the DOB on my licenses, anyway. A lot depends on the exact circumstances.
 
Cyanide_357, normally I would refrain from making comments about the offensiveness of someone else's comment, but were I still 18, I would be very offended by your post. Who are you to tell someone that as an adult citizen they should not be able to practice the right to self-defense? At age 16 and probably much before I was aware of the responsibilities and ramifications of carrying a deadly weapon, high school or not. Who are you tell someone who can be sent to fight a war for his country that he 'probably still doesn't have the mindset to carry'?? Maybe you had or still have problems 'getting your horomones under control', but that doesn't mean others suffer from the same lack of self-control.

As WildAlaska said, I know plenty of people to whom the years should have, by all rational thinking, beaten some wisdom and proper mindset into, but are far from prepared to carry a deadly weapon. It is forever the individual, not his age or some other meaningless quality, that makes the difference.

I've really tried to tone down this post, but I've never been so frustrated with someones comment on this board before.

-Spooky
 
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