Is Lyman "M" expanding die a part of their Premium Carbide 3 Die Set?

[Onty]

After many moons I started reloading 44 Magnum ammo again. Bullet is MP-Molds MP 432-256 PB SOLID https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-432-256-pb-solid-6-cav-alu/ , brass is Starline. reloading dies RCBS. I had noticed that in final process of seating bullet and crimping it there is a slight lead scraping on one side. I tried to increase brass flaring, but if I go just tad more, brass wouldn't go into seating and crimping die. I guess my problem is to put bullet straight enough in the case before seating and crimping it. I was even thinking about separating bullet seating and crimping into two operations.

Would Lyman so called "M" die solve my problem, would it in a real situation align bullet better than RCBS die?

I went on Lyman website and found they listed "Pistol Neck Expanding M Die" https://www.lymanproducts.com/pistol-neck-expanding-m-dies . However, there is nothing about decapping pin on it.

When checked "Premium Carbide 3 Die Set" https://www.lymanproducts.com/brand...tol-die-sets/lyman-premium-carbide-3-die-sets , there is nothing about "M" die, but they mentioned "Combined with another Lyman original - the two step neck expanding die, our Multi Deluxe Die Sets offer these features: a one piece hardened steel decapping rod". Is that in a nutshell "M" expanding die with decapping pin?

Thanks!

 

[PO2Hammer]

Expanders don’t have decapping pins.
That is in the sizing die or universal decapping die.
As I read it, yes, the Lyman 3 die set includes the ‘M’ die.
You can see the pin in the pic of the die set.

 

[PO2Hammer]

The M die might solve the shaving issue, but it sounds like your bullets are tilting when you seat them.

I would be looking closely at the seating die, making sure the seating stem matches your bullet profile.

 

[Onty]

Interesting, I just cheeked RCBS dies, and decapping pin is attached on flaring mandrel.

Also, I checked bullet seating insert, perfect fit with nose of the bullets I am using. Could be that case "bites" bullet before seating stem alings bullet. I might look for that Redding "Profile Crimp Die", since I am already considering splitting crimping from seating operation.

Thanks for advice!

 

[243winxb]

Interesting, I just cheeked RCBS dies, and decapping pin is attached on flaring mandrel.

Current RCBS 3 die carbide die sets now come with a M type expander. Size die decaps the primer. I have 9mm & 357 mag NEW ones.

My 1970s RCBS are different. Near as i can tell, the change was made maybe (?) 10 years ago, to the M.

 

[MEHavey]

RCBS dies, and decapping pin is attached on flaring mandrel.

Negatron....
RCBS pistol dies, like rifle dies, have decapping as part of the sizing process.
(Just came up again from processing some 44-40.)

What website did you find that said differently?

 

[Shooterbob]

some older rcbs dies have the decapping pin on the expanding die . Not sure when it was changed to the sizing die .Maybe one of the more seasoned hand loaders may know

 

[gwpercle]

The M-Die is a separate Die and not in any set except maybe Cowboy Action Dies ... rules require cast lead bullets and the M-Die Might be in Cowboy Dies if Lyman even sells Cowboy dies .

For no shaving ...bullets must be started straight ...if they lean , they will be shaved ... crooked in and you will get shaving ... You must start them in straight and with enough flare ... No Easy Answer , No Magic Tool !
Gary

 

[243winxb]

Vintage 1973 RCBS 44 carbide die set. With expander/decapper. There was an optional unit that installed in the carbide sizing die, to decap while sizing.

Yes, i bought 44 dies new & still using them. Dies are holding up better then me & the M29-2.

 

[ballman6711]

Current RCBS 3 die carbide die sets now come with a M type expander. Size die decaps the primer. I have 9mm & 357 mag NEW ones.

My 1970s RCBS are different. Near as i can tell, the change was made maybe (?) 10 years ago, to the M.

Just looked at two new sets of RCBS 45acp dies, and sure enough both have the "M" style expander. Surprised me a bit, but I learned something new again today.

I measured both expanders, and both measured the same, .447-.448 on the small part, and .452 on the larger part. I just opened both sets, and haven't cleaned them yet, so they may be just a tad smaller once the preservative is cleaned off.

chris

 

[GW Staar]

I don't for the life of me understand RCBS and their total aversion to art of marketing. I even know an engineer at RCBS personally and this is the first I knew they converted pistol die sets with "M" expanders. I have .223 and .308 rifle "M" expanders that came with their "Tube Rifle Bullet Feeders", but that's all I knew about.

Been telling him for years they needed to totally convert to the "M" expander, but he never even commented. Sly devil......

They made powder thru "M" style expanders for pistol for the Old Pro 2000 years ago, but they looked like this:

The ones in the .223 and .308 tube rifle bullet feeders look like this:

 

[9mmepiphany]

this is the first I knew they converted pistol die sets with "M" expanders

I'm stunned that I knew something about RCBS dies before you did

RCBS went to the M-profile with their expanding dies right around the time that Redding did

 

[9mmepiphany]

Interesting, I just cheeked RCBS dies, and decapping pin is attached on flaring mandrel.

Those are some old RCBS dies

When checked "Premium Carbide 3 Die Set" https://www.lymanproducts.com/brand...tol-die-sets/lyman-premium-carbide-3-die-sets , there is nothing about "M" die, but they mentioned "Combined with another Lyman original - the two step neck expanding die, our Multi Deluxe Die Sets offer these features: a one piece hardened steel decapping rod". Is that in a nutshell "M" expanding die with decapping pin?

This threw me for a moment as I thought the Lyman Premium dies were their stainless ones...turns out that Lyman refers to their top tier dies as "Pro Dies"

Ever since Lyman introduced their M-die, almost all their pistol expansion dies have included the M profile...so they don't usually specifically mention it. You're confusing their mention of their "one piece hardered stell decapping rod" as referring to their expanding die...the comma separates the reference. They are referring to their Multi Deluxe Die Set having the one piece rod

 

[9mmepiphany]

Could be that case "bites" bullet before seating stem alings bullet. I might look for that Redding "Profile Crimp Die", since I am already considering splitting crimping from seating operation.

It isn't so much that the case is "biting" the bullet as the bullet is either not starting straight or isn't remaining aligned with the case as it enters the die. Changing to a different crimp die won't affect that...but the Redding Profile Crimp die is excellent. The only time that crimp will affect shaving is if you are crimping before the bullet is fully seated.

What will help is getting a "M" profile expander as the "cup" in forms in the case mouth will help hold the bullet straight in the case mouth.

I had a shaving issue when I started loading coated bullets in .38Spl. I attacked it with a multi-prong approach
1. Trimming case to a uniform lenght for uniform exopansion
2. "M" profile expanded
3. Seating with a Redding Competition Seating die...holds the bullet in alignment with the case as it is seated
4. Separate Crimp die as the Redding seating die doesn't crimp

 

[GW Staar]

I'm stunned that I knew something about RCBS dies before you did

RCBS went to the M-profile with their expanding dies right around the time that Redding did

I'm stunned that you ever thought that I knew something reloading-wise before you. I doubt that I ever did either. Afterall, that's why you and Walkalong get the big bucks running reloading here at THR.

Although I wish I was.....I've never been "in the loop" with RCBS......they know I'm too old to be trusted with information.....they're not dumb.....

 

[hdwhit]

Can't say since Lyman has, for essentially a decade, steadfastly refused to respond to my correspondence regarding one of my dies via telephone, their website, mail or email.

And it's not like I'm asking for something for free. The error that resulted in the expander being damaged was my own fault and I am willing to pay for the replacement, but nobody seems willing to sell me a replacement part.

 

[Blue68f100]

It may be the bullet is tipping after the seating die has encased the bullet but not contacted the seating stem. This is where Hornady's drop down sleeve shines. It's used to hold the bullet straight till the seating die contacts it. You can actually have a crooked bullet setting on the mouth of the case and spin the cartridge as it enters and it will align the bullet. Very useful when you only doing min flaring.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I tried to increase brass flaring, but if I go just tad more, brass wouldn't go into seating and crimping die.

I read this earlier and meant to address it.

There is a fine line between "enough" and "too much." Depending on the maker of your die and the coarseness of the treads they use, it might be a half turn adjustment or an eight of a turn.

When using a M profile die, I expand enough that the bullet will stay seated in the "cup" when I invert the case. M-dies don't flare, they create a "cup" with parallel sides...less likely to scrape the seating die

 

[GW Staar]

Vintage 1973 RCBS 44 carbide die set. With expander/decapper. There was an optional unit that installed in the carbide sizing die, to decap while sizing.

Yes, i bought 44 dies new & still using them. Dies are holding up better then me & the M29-2.

Yup me too in .45acp, .38sp, and .45 Colt. And that was in 1972 the year after I got married. Was trying to remember when I bought my next pistol in .40S&W.....most likely 1976-8. And that the the first one I bought that came with the now normal sizer/decapper together. But I'm not swearing my memory is perfect.

I read this earlier and meant to address it.

There is a fine line between "enough" and "too much." Depending on the maker of your die and the coarseness of the treads they use, it might be a half turn adjustment or an eight of a turn.

When using a M profile die, I expand enough that the bullet will stay seated in the "cup" when I invert the case. M-dies don't flare, they create a "cup" with parallel sides...less likely to scrape the seating die.

Exactly! Great description!.....when I invert to test the die adjustment, I even shake it a couple of times.....then I know it won't tilt. The best use of these "M" dies are in progressives. It's the merry go round and the tendency for bullets to be tilted by the centrifical force as it swings to the seater, and gets pressed into it, less thean straight and so plays hell with concentricity of bullet to case.

Without such a die you have to slow down and hand feed the bullets straight, and if you try to hand feed them into the seater at speed, you tend to get bit. Hurts like hell and gets blood on your press......been there.....hate it, and the only alternative is a single press, or less than concentric reloads. "M" dies are all I do now, pistol AND rifle.

 

[Onty]

Vintage 1973 RCBS 44 carbide die set. With expander/decapper. There was an optional unit that installed in the carbide sizing die, to decap while sizing.

Yes, i bought 44 dies new & still using them. Dies are holding up better then me & the M29-2.

Yep, my expander/decapper is the same.

Can't say since Lyman has, for essentially a decade, steadfastly refused to respond to my correspondence regarding one of my dies via telephone, their website, mail or email.

And it's not like I'm asking for something for free. The error that resulted in the expander being damaged was my own fault and I am willing to pay for the replacement, but nobody seems willing to sell me a replacement part.

For that very same reason I would consider RCBS and others over Lyman. I never dealt with any of them, but too many times I found on internet that Lyman Customer Service is awful. According to others, RCBS Customer Service is very good.

Good to know that RCBS and REDDING are making "M" style expanding die. I will modify my expander die to work the as "M" type. Hope that .432-.433" dia will work, and have my brass lasting longer.

 

[243winxb]

.432-.433"

If bullet diameters are larger then standard, .430" a custom expander may be needed.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/

I have not needed one. I size cast to .430" for 44 mag.

 

[Kookla]

@Onty Hi Onty, I work for Mark 7 and Lyman Products. Our deluxe 3 piece carbide pistol dies include a sizing/decapping die, M die and a bullet seating die. Hope this helps.

If you've had an issue with our customer service, please let me know. We have a really good team over here.

 

[Kaldor]

I don't for the life of me understand RCBS and their total aversion to art of marketing. I even know an engineer at RCBS personally and this is the first I knew they converted pistol die sets with "M" expanders. I have .223 and .308 rifle "M" expanders that came with their "Tube Rifle Bullet Feeders", but that's all I knew about.

Been telling him for years they needed to totally convert to the "M" expander, but he never even commented. Sly devil......

They made powder thru "M" style expanders for pistol for the Old Pro 2000 years ago, but they looked like this:

The ones in the .223 and .308 tube rifle bullet feeders look like this:

That Pro 2000 PTX expander works quite well in the Hornady powder drop if you need something that resembles an "M-die" but dont have room on the tool head for it.

@Onty The M-die will help you out with your issue. Ive found I need to actually expand less with them to get no lead shaving, and the little shelf it creates will get your bullet started straight. Well worth the $30ish they cost. I use them in both rifle and pistol, and just give them a light crimp to close up the case mouth flare.

 

[Onty]

@Onty Hi Onty, I work for Mark 7 and Lyman Products. Our deluxe 3 piece carbide pistol dies include a sizing/decapping die, M die and a bullet seating die. Hope this helps.

If you've had an issue with our customer service, please let me know. We have a really good team over here.

Very, very glad to hear that! No, I didn't have any issue with equipment from any manufacturer that required contacting Customer Service. Just reflecting what others posted. To be frank, I found good and bad reviews about Lyman Customer Service. Problem is that bad comments etch in human memory way longer than a good ones, and I am not exception.