thumper723
Member
11M's grammar Nazi skills would make him an excellent Navy XO.
Who cares if you can lead and fight, as long as the paperwork looks right.
Who cares if you can lead and fight, as long as the paperwork looks right.
Is Military Anti-Gun?
- Thread starter ForeignDude
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bogie
Member
Guys, the average grunt just ain't that bright. And more often than not, testeosterone is what fuels any brain function which occurs. I _would not_ want to have loaded firearms present in the average barracks.
Or those big ugly knives, for that matter... Saw a coupla guys slice each other to ribbons with those little swiss army knives that they'd let us have... They were trying very hard to inflict good slashing wounds on each other, and succeeding...
Or those big ugly knives, for that matter... Saw a coupla guys slice each other to ribbons with those little swiss army knives that they'd let us have... They were trying very hard to inflict good slashing wounds on each other, and succeeding...
Devonai
Member
Army Infantry here, by way of the New Hampshire National Guard. I would say that 75% of my company is very pro-gun, shoots on their own time, and understands the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment. I don't know about the other 25% because I haven't talked to that portion yet.
I can't speak for the on-base mentalilty, but I suspect the National Guard is always going to have a higher percentage of "true believers," especially in states where you can go home after drill and pull out your own AR-15, 92FS, et cetera.
I can't speak for the on-base mentalilty, but I suspect the National Guard is always going to have a higher percentage of "true believers," especially in states where you can go home after drill and pull out your own AR-15, 92FS, et cetera.
Eleven Mike
Member
Nonsense. I've met quite a few that weren't so well-educated. Most weren't interested in being egg-head geeks. But most were fairly intelligent.
That hurts. Navy and an officer? That hurts, man.
Hornady, did you think I was picking on your grammar? Sorry, I was just being silly. But if you were just calling me a grammar-NAZI because I am one, that's fine. It just means I'm smarter than you.
thumper723
Member
Grammar nazi-ism is one of the reasons I will never make it past LCDR. Heck, making LCDR is debateable.
FWIW, the Navy is just as bad, if not worse than the Army about having guns in my experience.
FWIW, the Navy is just as bad, if not worse than the Army about having guns in my experience.
bogie
Member
Guys, scoring well on the ASVAB (or whatever they call it today...) was NOT a prereq for being an 11bangbang... Yeah, you get a few intelligent infantry folks, and a lot of people from the other end of the spectrum.
Yeah, there are high-speed, low-drag, ubertactical folks out there... But, quite frankly, the average NCO's biggest worry involves his people doing dumb stuff.
Yeah, there are high-speed, low-drag, ubertactical folks out there... But, quite frankly, the average NCO's biggest worry involves his people doing dumb stuff.
Eleven Mike
Member
So, because a high ASVAB is not required, grunts must be dumb? Because young people tend to do foolish things, then grunts must be dumb?
Kali Endgame
member
IMHO the access to alcohol is one of the reasons the US Military is so strict on firearms regulations on base. Most of the fights were alcohol fueled altercations. We had a person in our unit smuggle a gun into the barracks and shoot another person(his friend). It is hard to treatneverkeepkeep when you are blowing a .29 BAC. The shooting was an accident but left the unit without two members. One in the Brig and one recovering from a serious gunshot wound.
Because the true dummies aren't filtered out, some grunts are dumb.
Because young people tend to do dumb things, and grunts tend to be young, some usually smart grunts do some incredibly dumb things.
And because the 'military life' goes home with them, and the urge to not have something happen, etc... Rules tend to be passed over everyone over the dumb actions of a few.
edit: Oh yeah. I imagine that it's like the AF. Those with higher ASVAB's tend to be prodded towards more intellectual career fields, thus leaving mostly the 'dregs' for 'grunt' career fields.
hornadylnl
Member
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- Messages
- 375
11M, I guess you were too much of a snob to answer my question? What units and what time were you in?
I had a 123 GT and I knew several grunts who had higher than that. One would think that the dumb ones wouldn't have a whole lot of ambition, so why would they want to join the infantry when it requires a lot of physical work? Doesn't take a whole lot of brain cells to turn a wrench by army standards.
11M, you'll like this one even more. My mother was an English teacher. When you aren't in an environment that immerses you in proper grammar, you tend to lose it. I work with industrial maintenance guys who can't spell maintenance. I don't see how a smart*** comment that adds nothing to the discussion and bashes another poster makes you seem any more intelligent. More snobbish, but not more intelligent.
I had a 123 GT and I knew several grunts who had higher than that. One would think that the dumb ones wouldn't have a whole lot of ambition, so why would they want to join the infantry when it requires a lot of physical work? Doesn't take a whole lot of brain cells to turn a wrench by army standards.
11M, you'll like this one even more. My mother was an English teacher. When you aren't in an environment that immerses you in proper grammar, you tend to lose it. I work with industrial maintenance guys who can't spell maintenance. I don't see how a smart*** comment that adds nothing to the discussion and bashes another poster makes you seem any more intelligent. More snobbish, but not more intelligent.
Chuck R.
Member
hornadylnl
Not everybody gets painted with the same brush, and generally folks get what they earn. Unfortunately during the draw down after Desert Storm, we did get rid of quite a few soldiers for minor infractions, but we had to. We also lost a whole bunch of good officers and NCOs during that time for the same reasons. As my BN CDR told me once, some will have to go, and some of those really are the good ones. At that time, those minor infractions were viewed as discriminators. The citizens of this country wanted a “peace dividend” and that meant a smaller Army.
Sometimes folks confuse the normal regime as getting screwed with. The military isn’t a club and there’s a whole bunch of “stuff” that seems pretty chicken chit, but is a part of a climate of good order and discipline. I’ve been in really good units and some bad ones. You can usually spot the indicators for a bad one in a couple of days and it’s sometimes how all the chicken chit stacks up. I've also investigated serious incidents in other units and the tell tale signs were there.
As for the married soldiers getting different treatment, I agree, but some of it was do to legal constraints. Off post folks are protected to a degree by constitutionality that does not apply on post. I couldn’t search a quarters off post without probable cause and a warrant. It’s that plain and simple. It’s not fair, but it’s part of being in the military, you lose some of the rights you’re there to protect. I had a responsibility to maintain a safe environment for my soldiers and if that meant Health & Welfares, than that’s what we did. The same went for urinalysis, smoking a couple joints or doing a couple lines is no big deal on the outside, for the military it’s terminal. To tell you the truth, I was more concerned about a couple of my “all-stars” getting liquored up and playing with their knives, numchucks (sp), bats, and or guns in the barracks.
As far as driving folks out of the military, there are some folks that just aren’t cut out to be in the military in the first place. It’s not right or wrong, it’s just the way they are. The good ones realized it wasn’t for them, did their duty, and ETS or resigned and got on with life. The bad ones became a real PITA, and ended up being chaptered sooner or later.
When it comes to more money, it’s basic economics, law of supply and demand. Privates get paid X $$$ because that’s the magic number that equals Y number of privates, same for 2LTs, same for LTCs and the same for Generals.
As for me, I was enlisted 78-82 made E-5 and got out to see the outside. Joined the Guard, went to college, ran out of money and the ROTC folks caught me. Next thing I know I’m an old 2LT in the Field Artillery. I figured I’d do another 4 years, pay of my debt and move on (again).
I retired in 05.
Chuck
Not everybody gets painted with the same brush, and generally folks get what they earn. Unfortunately during the draw down after Desert Storm, we did get rid of quite a few soldiers for minor infractions, but we had to. We also lost a whole bunch of good officers and NCOs during that time for the same reasons. As my BN CDR told me once, some will have to go, and some of those really are the good ones. At that time, those minor infractions were viewed as discriminators. The citizens of this country wanted a “peace dividend” and that meant a smaller Army.
Sometimes folks confuse the normal regime as getting screwed with. The military isn’t a club and there’s a whole bunch of “stuff” that seems pretty chicken chit, but is a part of a climate of good order and discipline. I’ve been in really good units and some bad ones. You can usually spot the indicators for a bad one in a couple of days and it’s sometimes how all the chicken chit stacks up. I've also investigated serious incidents in other units and the tell tale signs were there.
As for the married soldiers getting different treatment, I agree, but some of it was do to legal constraints. Off post folks are protected to a degree by constitutionality that does not apply on post. I couldn’t search a quarters off post without probable cause and a warrant. It’s that plain and simple. It’s not fair, but it’s part of being in the military, you lose some of the rights you’re there to protect. I had a responsibility to maintain a safe environment for my soldiers and if that meant Health & Welfares, than that’s what we did. The same went for urinalysis, smoking a couple joints or doing a couple lines is no big deal on the outside, for the military it’s terminal. To tell you the truth, I was more concerned about a couple of my “all-stars” getting liquored up and playing with their knives, numchucks (sp), bats, and or guns in the barracks.
As far as driving folks out of the military, there are some folks that just aren’t cut out to be in the military in the first place. It’s not right or wrong, it’s just the way they are. The good ones realized it wasn’t for them, did their duty, and ETS or resigned and got on with life. The bad ones became a real PITA, and ended up being chaptered sooner or later.
When it comes to more money, it’s basic economics, law of supply and demand. Privates get paid X $$$ because that’s the magic number that equals Y number of privates, same for 2LTs, same for LTCs and the same for Generals.
As for me, I was enlisted 78-82 made E-5 and got out to see the outside. Joined the Guard, went to college, ran out of money and the ROTC folks caught me. Next thing I know I’m an old 2LT in the Field Artillery. I figured I’d do another 4 years, pay of my debt and move on (again).
I retired in 05.
Chuck
kungfuhippie
Member
The military steers the smart ones away from grunt jobs
When I took the ASVAB (pre 9-11) I was at the marine recruiter's office, but the AF Army and NAVY were all next door. I scored above average (Not to gloat) and the Marine called all the other officers over. The AF marines and Navy were all but pissing themselves trying to get me talking about all the jobs I could do (medical, engineer, etc.) The army guy was buzy with someone so he didn't stick around. I had an AA degree and so they were pushing for me to get in the OTC in college so I'd go in as an officer. They were doing everything in their power to discourage me from wanting any grunt jobs. My buddy took the ASVAB several times to get a decent score, he went into Marine Infantry because that's all he could score into.
Anyway, due to a hereditary back condition, I won't be able to serve my country in that manner. So, I'm planning to work as a civilain for the Army Corp of Engineers upon graduation, atleast I can serve my country in that light.
When I took the ASVAB (pre 9-11) I was at the marine recruiter's office, but the AF Army and NAVY were all next door. I scored above average (Not to gloat) and the Marine called all the other officers over. The AF marines and Navy were all but pissing themselves trying to get me talking about all the jobs I could do (medical, engineer, etc.) The army guy was buzy with someone so he didn't stick around. I had an AA degree and so they were pushing for me to get in the OTC in college so I'd go in as an officer. They were doing everything in their power to discourage me from wanting any grunt jobs. My buddy took the ASVAB several times to get a decent score, he went into Marine Infantry because that's all he could score into.
Anyway, due to a hereditary back condition, I won't be able to serve my country in that manner. So, I'm planning to work as a civilain for the Army Corp of Engineers upon graduation, atleast I can serve my country in that light.
SnWnMe
Member
In our base, a spent 22 shell can get you in heaps of trouble according to the regs. Possession of a grip panel from a 1911 is also bad news.
I agree with the tone of the thread.
In Basic and AIT we were all gung-ho and ready to go. Going to hit all the Hooah schools and get good training.
Then you get to your unit. Realize you are just another soldier on the line. Pulling some ridiculous detail or another. Sweeping the motorpool, mowing the grass, polishing the floors at Division HQ, yup I did that. I know it has to get done but...I'll sum it up this way.
I can only speak for my Army experience. Soldiering is 90 percent drudgery and 10 percent "the cool stuff".
Yes, if you are E4 or lower, you are treated like a child. If you had a privately owned weapon it had to be locked up in the armory. Anyone remember contraband amnesty, health and welfare inspections?
Hardly any of us had any desire to pursue weaponry any further. You eventually just look at it like a job. An unusual job, but still a job that you look forward to time off when you can get it.
In Basic and AIT we were all gung-ho and ready to go. Going to hit all the Hooah schools and get good training.
Then you get to your unit. Realize you are just another soldier on the line. Pulling some ridiculous detail or another. Sweeping the motorpool, mowing the grass, polishing the floors at Division HQ, yup I did that. I know it has to get done but...I'll sum it up this way.
I can only speak for my Army experience. Soldiering is 90 percent drudgery and 10 percent "the cool stuff".
Yes, if you are E4 or lower, you are treated like a child. If you had a privately owned weapon it had to be locked up in the armory. Anyone remember contraband amnesty, health and welfare inspections?
Hardly any of us had any desire to pursue weaponry any further. You eventually just look at it like a job. An unusual job, but still a job that you look forward to time off when you can get it.
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Eleven Mike
Member
hornady, I don't know who you thought I was bashing, unless it's the sort of people who pretend to be in elite units. Since no one in this thread is doing that, I didn't think I'd anger you or anyone else. I don't recall seeing any grammatical errors in your comments. Did I pick on you some other time?
As far as my service record, I'd prefer not to get into it. In hindsight, I should have just let your question go unanswered. I just thought I would have a little fun. Sorry if you misunderstood me. Since you must know, I was in the First Cav, Fort Hood, Texas.
_____________________________________________________
My ASVAB was 130, or whatever the highest score happened to be. I don't recall being pushed toward any other MOS, although I think they did ask me about it.
As far as my service record, I'd prefer not to get into it. In hindsight, I should have just let your question go unanswered. I just thought I would have a little fun. Sorry if you misunderstood me. Since you must know, I was in the First Cav, Fort Hood, Texas.
_____________________________________________________
My ASVAB was 130, or whatever the highest score happened to be. I don't recall being pushed toward any other MOS, although I think they did ask me about it.
atomchaser
Member
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The House doesn't have any say, but I believe all field grade promotions get approved by the Senate. It's pretty much a formality for 0-6 and below, but General Officer promotions do get scruntinzed and occasionally withdrawn if a Senator takes issue with the person. John McCain was able to hold up G.O. promotions in the AF for quite awhile due to his dislke for what he AF did on the Boeing tanker deal.
hornadylnl
Member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2006
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11M,
I took your smart*** response with the terrible grammar to be a poke at my post. I was just curious if we had ever crossed paths. That's all. Not trying to fly my black helicopter over your house to spy on you.
I took your smart*** response with the terrible grammar to be a poke at my post. I was just curious if we had ever crossed paths. That's all. Not trying to fly my black helicopter over your house to spy on you.
PILMAN
Member
All my friends are military and they love guns. Heck everytime we go to the gunshop and i'm looking at something, they are always pointing at the AR-15's or the AK47's and telling me to purchase it unless you meant the military in general?
hornadylnl
Member
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Chuck R.
I got a company grade article 15 while I was in Bosnia. My charge was disrespect to a non commissioned officer. What happened was I was on my way back from chow when I asked the corporal who was ncoic of the toc at the time, if I had gotten any mail. I hadn't gotten any for awhile and anybody who has ever been deployed knows mail is important. I was engaged at the time and was getting letters regularly from my fiancee. He told me I had gotten 4 or 5 letters. He was on his way to chow so I left it at that. I got back to my tent. I shared a tent with an E5 that was getting ready to go on the night shift at the TOC. I nonchalantly told him, "Hey Sergeant, go to the TOC and get my mail", with no attitude that I was ordering him to go do it. He was still in his underwear and getting dressed. I realized he wasn't going to go running out and get it right then. He kept telling me that I didn't get any mail, he'd already checked. The way I saw it was he was antagonizing me about it. I lost my cool and another E5 overheard it and ran to the acting first sergeant and ratted me out. I got my article 15. The E5 that I was arguing with didn't have the balls to tell the CO what really happened.
When we got back to Germany, almost everyone got put in for an award. I was told I couldn't get one because of my article 15. Meanwhile, a guy gets busted shoplifting at the px after we get back and is pending a field grade article 15 and they give him an award for Bosnia.
In my unit of 100 or so guys, at least 14 got an article 15 in the lead up and while deployed to Bosnia. Some got more than one. Doesn't that show a breakdown of morale in a unit? My CO was only interested in his OER.
Blanket policy for all soldiers is piss poor and lazy leadership. If a squad leader isn't able to determine a correct course of action for an infraction, then they shouldn't be in leadership.
I did 4 years in the Guard after I got out of active duty. Who could have thought that leadership could have gotten any worse? It did in the Guard, trust me. I had an E5 who couldn't hold a job managing a convience store and had to have people drive him to drill.
I got a company grade article 15 while I was in Bosnia. My charge was disrespect to a non commissioned officer. What happened was I was on my way back from chow when I asked the corporal who was ncoic of the toc at the time, if I had gotten any mail. I hadn't gotten any for awhile and anybody who has ever been deployed knows mail is important. I was engaged at the time and was getting letters regularly from my fiancee. He told me I had gotten 4 or 5 letters. He was on his way to chow so I left it at that. I got back to my tent. I shared a tent with an E5 that was getting ready to go on the night shift at the TOC. I nonchalantly told him, "Hey Sergeant, go to the TOC and get my mail", with no attitude that I was ordering him to go do it. He was still in his underwear and getting dressed. I realized he wasn't going to go running out and get it right then. He kept telling me that I didn't get any mail, he'd already checked. The way I saw it was he was antagonizing me about it. I lost my cool and another E5 overheard it and ran to the acting first sergeant and ratted me out. I got my article 15. The E5 that I was arguing with didn't have the balls to tell the CO what really happened.
When we got back to Germany, almost everyone got put in for an award. I was told I couldn't get one because of my article 15. Meanwhile, a guy gets busted shoplifting at the px after we get back and is pending a field grade article 15 and they give him an award for Bosnia.
In my unit of 100 or so guys, at least 14 got an article 15 in the lead up and while deployed to Bosnia. Some got more than one. Doesn't that show a breakdown of morale in a unit? My CO was only interested in his OER.
Blanket policy for all soldiers is piss poor and lazy leadership. If a squad leader isn't able to determine a correct course of action for an infraction, then they shouldn't be in leadership.
I did 4 years in the Guard after I got out of active duty. Who could have thought that leadership could have gotten any worse? It did in the Guard, trust me. I had an E5 who couldn't hold a job managing a convience store and had to have people drive him to drill.
DC3-CVN-72
Member
The military in and of itself is not Anti-Gun. As has been mentioned most restrictions are for base security. It realy comes down to who the comanding officer is and what his or her political ambitions are. When I was in the Navy I was stationed on board the USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN CVN-72 Home ported @ NAS. Alameda.CA. '91-"95. In '91 all personal firearms had to be stored at the BASE ARMORY, no personal firearms were alowed on board ship. This was a hasel, but understandable. In '94 we got a new C.O. @ NAS. Alameda and he was so Anti-Gun the first standing order he gave was that no personal firearms could be kept on base at all. I was just begining my 90 day's term. leave and was packed up and on my way, so it did'ent impact me. I think it was chalenged in milatary court and either overturned or the new CO. balked and recinded the order, I think it was a combination of the two.
Akusp
Member
attitude
anybody ever notice how sh. draws flies?
Randy
anybody ever notice how sh. draws flies?
Randy
DC3-CVN-72
Member
Post # 47
AKusp, What are you talking about?
AKusp, What are you talking about?
Akusp
Member
attitude
Sorry, I let a certain poster distract me. IMO the military isn't anti gun. Some military commanders probably are. Recently here in Alaska, a Commander ordered that his troops would not be allowed to carry concealed weapons off post as is permitted by our state law. Of course that Commander may have concerns that have nothing to do with being "anti gun".
R
Sorry, I let a certain poster distract me. IMO the military isn't anti gun. Some military commanders probably are. Recently here in Alaska, a Commander ordered that his troops would not be allowed to carry concealed weapons off post as is permitted by our state law. Of course that Commander may have concerns that have nothing to do with being "anti gun".
R
DC3-CVN-72
Member
Akusp, I understand.
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