Is Military Anti-Gun?

[bill2]

I was in the Army, 12B combat engrs, in '74 - '78. and yeah I felt like I was treated like a kid quite often. We shot our Mi16's maybe twice a year. the CO and 1st SGT didn't care that we could shoot that well. I didn't think that the Army was anti-gun, they just didn't seem that pro-gun either. I had a couple of pistols I had to keep in the armory, and had to sign them out when I went shooting. I spent my last several months at Fort Ord, CA and really hated that. I danced in the street when I finally got out of the Army.
I scored a 146 GT, and never got any encouragement to go in a particular part of the Army.
Interesting to hear everyone's experiences while they were in.

 

[Akusp]

When I tested, recruiters for each branch shared office space. I was looking to get out there and do something but hadn't made up my mind except that I didn't want join the AF. I had spent my life as an AF brat and knew I wanted something different. After looking at my scores the Navy offered me a choice between a nuclear program or advanced electronics. Neither the Army or Marines offered anything comparable. A younger brother tested very well too but wasn't offered much. It probably depends on the needs of the service at the time.

The guys that I knew that were interested in hunting and firearms left their stuff at home with family. The ship was your home. I don't know that anyone ever got comfortable enough with any Naval Station to call it home. Heck, we usually found the front gate and maybe the laundry the rest of the base was a mystery. Forget about finding an armory

I almost forgot...we did find the club too.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

USAF, 1968 - 1972

Odd mix.

In Basic (Lackland) we made two trips to the range. Day one: "This is an M16 rifle . . ." and they had us shoot off 60 rounds. This was our "practice" day. Day two: couple days later we're back at the range, shooting at silhouettes, going through another 60 rounds. Those of us with some boyhood experience shot expert. The rest were all over the place.

Two years later, on station in the UK, we had to requalify. All done. The only other contact we had with weapons was on post alert, when one of us would be issued an M16 and given a gate to guard.

There was never any inspection of barracks for weapons. I had a collection of antique swords, several pocket knives, and a few Gerber hunting knives I picked up at the BX in Germany.

We had some guys with truly exotic weapons. Oriental stuff, Philippine "cutlery," a few spears, an axe or two, several bayonets, the occasional bow & arrow. Never saw any firearms, though.

I was told at the range, when I requalified, that "we encourage all personnel" to practice regularly. First I'd ever heard of it. Best kept secret base policy.

We had an active Rod & Gun Club, but I was ignorant and stupid and it never occurred to me that someone in the military ought to be any good at shooting.

As far as "dummies" in the military, I noticed something that didn't really click until years later: I worked with some really bright guys -- in their "real life" specialities. These same guys were all over the board when they were on duty.

First class mechanic. Brilliant with wrenches. Put a set of overalls on him, stick a wrench in his hand, grease him up a bit, and the guy was a freakin' philosopher. Put him in his drabs and stick him in the comm center, and the guy was a zombie klutz. Same on the parade ground. Same on barracks inspections. It was like an "IQ attenuation" switch.

We had any number of those. We also had the "bright while on duty, dumb when off duty."

I use the term "impedance mismatch" to describe the "apparent stupidity" phenomenon.

There were VERY FEW airmen who actually grasped that the military framework was just a game, and who could function as well inside as outside. I was not one of those. I took it all very seriously, and it manifested as a kind of on-duty cluelessness. This despite top test scores and aptitude numbers. I was just a little too good at suspension of disbelief, and it made me contextually myopic. (I never grasped the politics of the military community.)

Now that I look back, I have to wonder why there wasn't more active encouragement of the troops to achieve levels of competence with weapons.

I mean, it is, after all, the MILITARY!?

 

[rbernie]

Now that I look back, I have to wonder why there wasn't more active encouragement of the troops to achieve levels of competence with weapons.

My experience was that the various and sundry command structures lived in abject fear of having to deal with masses of 18-26 year old males with access to intoxicating fluids and firearms. Since they couldn't regulate the liquor aspects (out of fear of an out-n-out revolt), they simply precluded access to any firearms as much as possible.

 

[DC3-CVN-72]

Akusp, I Know what you mean about not calling any naval air station home. When we were in port me and some of my friends from my Div. would rent an apt. in town. Anyone In my Div. that was into guns was a hunter and left there shotguns and rifles at home. I was the only one with a .45 Colt 1911. So when I was on duty or we got underway I stored it at the Base Armory, it was the most secure place for it.

 

[Eleven Mike]

There's quite a bit to combat units besides shooting, even for infantry. "Shoot, move and communicate" is the motto. Learning to move cross-country, in proper formation, keeping the right distance between elements, is crucial. Units must learn how to react to ambushes, or to sniper fire (run away!), how to assault through an objective, etc. There are also special situations like urban terrain, trenches, clearing obstacles. Learning to communicate with voice and radio is also important.

Then there are items like setting up assembly areas, the myriad tasks related to detecting and protecting against chemical agents, etc. Now, soldiers have nonsense briefings every few weeks, about race relations, sexism, sexual harassment, and so on.

Actual marksmanship gets lost in the mix.

 

[Glockfan.45]

To be honest after a while I stopped looking forward to trigger time and started to dread it. Hours spent detail striping weapons on a cold cement floor with a can of brake cleaner, and a tooth brush will do that to you. Could very well be why I waited so long to add an AR to my collection bad memories, hell I doubt you could give me a M60 based on that. 11M is right on his last post the bulk of our time out was spent practicing things like moving forward using cover fire (which was a guy behind you yelling bang....bang....bang no I'm not joking) walking in formation, setting up an ambush, reacting to an ambush, and so on. Actual live fire range time was a rare event. In the end tactics are more important than individual marksmanship.

 

[Eleven Mike]

Glockfan, you must have been in first Cav, too. That mirrors my experience pretty closely, except for the brake-cleaner. I think it does inhibit professionalism when you're laying there with an empty M16 or M249 and chanting "bang" in 3-shot bursts. Cap guns would have been better.

 

[Glockfan.45]

11M yeah they would send us down to the auto parts store to buy out their brake cleaner, WD40, and shop rags each month. The saddest thing though was when we were told they were low on blanks so when we ran out we were to shake our guns and yell bang (to those not familiar MILES gear works off recoil so a good hard shake would trick the unit into firing). Well that and guys taking cover behind bushes . Oh and how could I forget our CO suggesting we buy our own mags, since they didnt have many 30 rounders in stock they seemed to grow legs and walk away (this was during the AWB). Ah the dark days of Clinton, perhaps things are better now.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

IMHO Command in Alaska is overstepping their bounds by denying RBKA to soldiers in Alaska. That is the Second Amendment Period.
It's also a shame that the over 90% of the NCO's don't develop soldiers like they are supposed to with positive counseling as well as negative counseling. Does a soldier wrong. Doesn't get worthy soldiers promoted and gets unworthy soldiers promoted. Dirtbags who should get kicked out don't because leadership's lack of discipline to follow through with timely and effective counseling. It's our Army and we have to police it.
Positive leadership develops great leaders.

 

[zookrider]

A few of my observstions

1)I don't think that the military is anti-gun, just pro-cya.

2)I agree that lower enlisted get treated like children and while that is unfair to some, it is neccessary for many. When my "super troops" question me about it (which is rare since I try to treat my Joes as individuals to the best of my abilities) I explain to them that sometimes I have to cater to the lowest common denominator like it or not, and the best course of action is to excel and get promoted to SGT.

3)The way we handle promotions now is part of the problem. Instead of allowing me to reccomend the best soldiers for promotion I have to justify not promoting somebody. The problem with this method is that anybody that manages to keep their nose clean, regardless of leadership ability, gets promoted. This makes for some piss poor NCOs.

4)hornady, I realize that you had some poor experiences with the military and I'm sorry for that. While I respect your opinion about the NCO corps being a hinderance to the development of the military I must respectfully disagree with you.

If you have ever seen an Army without an NCO corps (i.e. Russia) then you would know that our system is vastly superior. When you don't have proffesional NCO's then ALL leadership is handled by officers, most of whom were never enlisted. Remember what you said about "when I was a private I did it, now you're the private so you do it, when you're an NCO you will supervise as I'm doing now" (not you're exact words, but that the way it works. In an Army with no proffesional NCO corps it goes like this "I'm an officer and have never done what I'm telling you to do now (and probably couldn't do it if I had to), and your chances of getting to become an officer like me are virtually non-existent, now get to work."

Morale in this situation is always terrible, while moral in our Army is often (but not always) dependent on the individual unit leadership. Good leaders = high morale, bad leaders = low morale. And leadership changes every few years so if your platoon SGT, 1SG, or CO are terrible, chances are they are leaving soon and hopefully the next one will be better. This is why almost every Army in the world that has no NCO corps comes to us to learn to build one.

4) The Army now has a philosophy similar to the Marines "Every man a rifleman." It's called the Warrior Ethos and it is within the Soldiers creed.

I am an American Soldier.
I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.
I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen comrade.
I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.
I am an expert and I am a professional.
I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.
I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.
I am an American Soldier.

Within this framework we are pushing the concept that every soldiers secondary MOS is 11B. It is new so it will take a while to become institutionalized, but it will happen eventually. You can see it already with the advent of monthly realistic hand to hand combat training down to the company level and an increased emphasis on weapons proficiency.

 

[blacksuit]

When I got out of the army in 2001 I was a SGT. I can say that I could shoot the hell out of a tank. The M1A1 is on bad MOFO and I was a pretty good gunner. Now the M16 and the 9mm was another thing. The army showed me how to field strip, cleaning,assemble, and the basics...and I mean the basics of shooting both. They tell you from the range tower, Lock your slide to the rear, insert your magzine, release your slide.....ect. But did they ever show me how to do a combat reload...no. Did they ever show me how to shoot and walk at the same time....no. They give you the basics and thats it. Of course I can only speak on the armor side of the house maybe the crunchies get alot better training on personal weapons.

 

[RustyShackelford]

An interesting subject...

This is a great topic for Thehighroad.org. I work as an armed security officer at a major chain hotel in the SouthEast US. I deal with many tourists who ask me about my state's security regulations reguarding weapons and my duty sidearm. I do not mind strange looks or questions by non-military guests but I'm not thrilled by some of the active duty service members and/or veterans that act the same way. About 2 months ago I dealt with 2 USMC members that got bent out of shape by my working armed at the hotel. Another active duty US Army member from FT Gordon GA made snide remarks to me and other hotel employees. As a US Army veteran I do not really understand why US military service members or their family act this way. Weapons are a part of most training. Just seeing someone carrying a firearm does not mean that person is dangerous unstable or untrained. :banghead:

Rather than looking sideways at an armed security guard or officer these armed forces members should first ask what type of licenses or training the person has. Or better yet understand gun laws and or know a state's firearm related statues before making any comments.

Rusty S

 

[hornadylnl]

11M and Glock45, you brought back some big time memories. I remember sitting on top of my foxhole laughing and tapping my miles laser at a Spanish mech infantry unit as they did the I'm up, he sees me, he sees me, he sees me, he sees me, I'm down manuevers in Spain. I spent 2 weeks in the Ukraine for Peace Shield 96 with 8 other foreign militarys and the Russians were one of them. Who would ever have thought that in 1996 that American soldiers would be drinking vodka with Russian soldiers. That was a great time.

I just bought an AR. I always said I would never get one after using a paperclip to clean out the roll pin on the front sight post. That is how anal our nco's were.

I do realize that it takes people to change the Army for the better but I knew I would die of hypertension before I would ever see the change. That is why I got out.

Blacksuit, you were probably the DAT that kept shutting your tanks off so that us grunts couldn't warm up and dry out. Ha!

 

[hornadylnl]

11M and Glock45,

Have you ever "accidentally" lost entire saw drums full of blanks or your m16 keep "jamming" because you didn't want to have to clean all the carbon out of your weapon?

Ever do mout training at Ft. Knox at their "high speed" mout site with opfor who wear boonie hats with no miles halo who stick their entire head and neck over the wall? You fire 100 rounds at them 100 meters away and the OC's refuse to asses casualties to the opfor?\

As far as I was concerned, the "pow, pow, pow" method was just as affective as blanks and miles and it made for a whole lot less work when you got back to the rear.

In the guard, they always wanted us to walk in the woods when it was pitch black with no nods, never seeming to care that most of us had jobs to go to on Monday. Kind of hard to do if you break an ankle walking through the woods when there was absolutely no training value in it.

 

[Glockfan.45]

hornadyln, Never lost a SAW drum but then our armory didnt have SAWS at the time. I do recall spending one night running around the woods looking for an A1 with a M203 launcher that some absent minded fool left leaning against a tree. Another time I got home Sunday night and discovered a belt of live 7.62 that I forgot was in my LBV . Oh and a few 20 round mags that found their way home once by mistake. Our M16s always jammed like I said they were 35 year old A1s . Opfor was always a bunch of local ROTC, as you can imagine they never had a chance . Sorry if this thread is drifting but now I am getting to some fond memories. Honestly I would consider another term but I have already had my *** in the sand once. Now I got the wife, kids, job thing going so leaving them behind isnt a attractive option.

 

[Dorryn]

Strange... I didnt have some of the anti-gun experiences you all seem to have had. Weapons, marksmanship, and training were expected and utilized.

I was 0311 USMC Infantry. I spent most of my time carrying the M249 SAW, and qualified with it as well as the M16A2 it seemed like every month or so. I spent so much time with a weapon in my hand I could practically BZO in my sleep. I had virtually no interest in weapons because I was essentially forced every waking moment to clean, fire, clean a few more times, clean someone else's weapon, clean my own again, possibly fire again. Back in the barracks, almost everyone who could afford it, usually E-2 and up, had a firearm or two in their storage lockers. My company basically depleted stores for miles around of WASR-10s and AK's and whatever else caught their fancy. The only time our unit ever even got annoyed was when they found one Corporal with 7-9 firearms, loaded, in his wall locker. Other than that, I cannot imagine our unit being in any way anti-gun. As for knives, there seemed to be an unwritten competition for who could strap the wierdest, most tacticool knife to their gear, and nobody really blinked at blade length as long as you werent dragging a 3' saber around.

That said, there were the infrequent alcohol-fueled brawls, some with weapons, but all that I can remember were of the threat-variety, and not actual attempts at physical assault.

Also, im a grunt, but at the same time, I put the average grammar Nazi to shame.

 

[Moondoggie]

I retired from the Marines in '99.

Speaking from my experience only in the Marine Corps, the military is NOT anti-gun. The Marines ARE totally anal about regulations and covering one's six.

Folks in the grunts are also totally non-conformist about many regulations that they percieve as stupid. Once you step off of the pavement and "go tactical", there's an entirely different mindset and culture toward everybody "back in the rear". "Back in the rear" would mean anybody who's more than a click behind you, or anybody who might be under the shelter of a GP tent. The guys in a fire team generally look upon the company 1stSgt as being totally out of touch with reality since he generally rides in a hummer and doesn't share exactly the same existence as every rudipoo PFC.

The Marines spend a lot of mental energy "idiot proofing" every situation to the nth degree. It's no stretch of the imagination to figure out that a bunch of testerone-pumped Rambos should probably not be left with weapons and ammunition in the barracks. Those .029 BAC guys are living in an alternate universe, and there's no telling what might happen. That's not to portray a picture that all Marines are drunken idiots, but all of us have been at one time or another.

BTW, JonB, all officer promotions in the military above 03 require confirmation by the U. S. Senate. There have been many occurances of individual officers being stricken from a promotion list in the Senate for political reasons. During the Tailhook Scandal, all Navy and Marine Officer promotions were held up by the Senate until each Officer selected for promotion was cleared of any possible involvement. That's one reason why a CO's pucker factor will skyrocket whenever there's "Congressional Interest" in one of the members of his command.

 

[KC&97TA]

Camp Pendleton isn't anti-gun: We have a Trap/Skeet/Sproting Clays range, weekend Pistol range for everyone, and the rifle ranges get used on the weekends by the CMP for matches and practice, we also have a small archery range and a couple of paint ball ranges. There's a sporting goods store on base that sells guns.

Even in the Peoples Republic of Communist California, we aren't anti-gun. For my "assult weapons permit" I did my finger print cards through the MP's.

Here's the issue, people liveing in the barraks are not allowed to have weapons or ammo in thier rooms. Technically you aren't supposed to have a knife with a fixed blade bigger than 3 or 4 inches in your possession. Putting civilian weapons into the armory require CO's permission and to get them out for the weekend requires CO's permission... why the CO's premission, because once your firearm enters the armory, he becomes responsible for it's location, not if it's damaged, just as to it's location, so your Remmy 700 & 870 just became as important to the CO as to the rest of his weapons, (ie M16, M9, M249, M240, M2, MK19, DMR) and you're personal weapons while in the armory are part of the sight count daily, we're strict on weapons control and custody. I know several of the guys that live in the barraks just keep thier firearms at one of thier friends houses that lives in base houseing or off base, so that they have access to thier guns a little easier.

Like Moondoggie said, "That's not to portray a picture that all Marines are drunken idiots, but all of us have been at one time or another." I lived in the barraks for the first 4 years of my time in the Corps, there's no place for weapons there of any kind there, we'd get drunk and beat the crap out of each other for fun, the big trouble came when we'd go to other units barraks and beat the crap out of them, there were some pretty heated nights were knifes and broken beer bottles came out.

 

[Eleven Mike]

As for knives, there seemed to be an unwritten competition for who could strap the wierdest, most tacticool knife to their gear, and nobody really blinked at blade length as long as you werent dragging a 3' saber around.

Only for dress uniform, right?

 

[Slamfire]

I believe the Army is Anti Gun

I believe the Army is anti gun. I have worked with any number of active duty Military Officers. Individually they are interested in things that go bang, but institutionally they are not. The Cold war officer is profoundly anti gun. I have been lectured by Majors, LTC’s that skills with a firearm are irrelevant. “We have machine guns, mortars, tanks, nuclear bombs by God!, what is a guy with a rifle going to do?!”. This was of course pre Iraqi, but it reflects that attitude of the Army since the 1970’s.

One gentleman I worked with, a retired LTC and fervent gun nut, used to teach Statistics at West Point. For those who do not know, West Point is the Holiest of Holies in the Army. It took him seven years to get the Officers Pistol range opened up. Apparently West Point had a personal pistol range that Officer’s or maybe Officer Candidates could go and shoot their personal pistol, and it had been closed down for years. May be closed again. But the frustrating thing for him was at West Point, the Holiest of Holies and the font of all Army doctrine, it was an oxymoron that an officer needed to be familiar with a firearm.

My friend thinks the down turn was when officers began to be issued firearms. There was a time when an Officer, like Patton, chose his sidearm, got to use it, some became familiar with it. But when the pistols were issued, if you lost it, your career was ended. So Officers stopped carrying sidearms, and in time, the thought of an Officer wanting to carry a sidearm was considered, what’s the term?, something like wearing white socks with green trousers, a social blunder perhaps?

It is my considered opinion that what has happened is a combination of attitudes, one that an officer is not a warrior but a “manager”. Also cost cutting created the cult of technology. That is technology will replace basic skills, therefore there is no need to get primitive with nasty weapons. Also, the fact that familiarization with firearms requires practice, practice that takes time away from painting rocks or marching in formation, practice that wears out weapons and consumes expensive ammunition. All of which require money, which is not available in peace time. Clever guys get promoted for saving money; the institution has been saturated with the idea that “today’s combat doctrine has reduced the need for firearms training”. Once the mid set is there, it does not take long for the institution to become antigun.

We will see if the current generation of junior officers coming out of Iraqi will make a dent in the anti gun institutional attitudes that are practiced by the Cold War Officer core. It may take a generation or two, and then cost cutting will bring it anti gun back.

 

[Eleven Mike]

The first pistol I ever fired was a Sig, the private property of my Platoon Leader. He was my platoon's lieutanent. Is that what they're called? Platoon Leader? Anyway, I was firing my personally-owned rifle at a civilian range, and he happened to come by with his Sig.

By the way, I kept my guns at an off-base storage locker that I rented. In the barracks, guns had to be registered and kept in the arms room. It was not worth the hassle.

 

[blacksuit]

hornadylnl

-Blacksuit, you were probably the DAT that kept shutting your tanks off so that us grunts couldn't warm up and dry out. Ha!

LOL I wouldn't shut them off if you had something to trade...loll I never minded letting the fellas dry off and warm up.

 

[hornadylnl]

Blacksuit,

I know those suckers sure could put out some heat. Hey, do you know the difference between a tank and a vacuum cleaner? The tank holds 4 dirt bags!!!!!

Please tell me that you actually got off the tank to use the latrine. I'd heard of several tankers that would traverse the turret and sit on the gun barrel.

 

[cbsbyte]

Obvious the military is not anti-gun, if it was then it would be a pretty useless military.

I do believe that the military is like a microcosim of society. It is a very diviverse like American society, there are going to be people that don't believe in the RKBA. Many of them might be in positions of power who will enact restrictive measures based on their own fears. On a side not some of the most anti-people I know severed in the military, for sometime and gained high ranks.