Is my new Mosin-Nagant safe to fire?

[fatelk]

I went down to Big-5 yesterday and bought a 91/30 Mosin Nagant, one of the arsenal refurnished ones, for $75 on sale. I picked out what I thought was a good one by checking the bore. They had a trigger lock on it so I couldn't remove the bolt or look at the chamber or throat. From the breech the rifling looked sharp and the crown is very good.
I cleaned it up today and was surprised to see the throat is wore out, almost smooth. The bigger concern, though, is the obvious welding on the side of the receiver. There are four holes that can be seen on the inside of the receiver in the rail channel. It looks like at some time it was drilled, tapped, plugged, and welded on the outside (poorly). Perhaps it was for a scope mount sometime in the past?

My question is, is this going to be safe to shoot or should I return it?

 

[Red Tornado]

It might be safe, but I'd take it back. Aside from possible safety issues, it's buggered up, and that's no good on your 'new' rifle.

If you feel you have to try it, use a string tied to the trigger and get way back.
RT

 

[bvchurch]

First let me cover something, those four holes you see filled are from what used to be a mounted sniper scope, therefore you have an "ex-sniper" which is definitely worth more than the $75 you paid for it, even in the condition it may be in.

As far as the condition, you can take it back and I know Big 5 has said they will replace them within a year if you find a defect, and I would just tell them that this is a possible safety hazard. *As a side note, the three Mosin Nagants in my signature came from Big 5.

 

[Cosmoline]

Probably an ex-sniper, but Big 5 has sold a lot of garbage over the years. Can you post a picture of the "weld" on the side? Does it look like this:

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/exsniperPU.JPG

or this:

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/exsniperPEside1.JPG

What are the markings on the shank? There should be an arsenal stamp and a year.

 

[PirateJoe]

First let me cover something, those four holes you see filled are from what used to be a mounted sniper scope, therefore you have an "ex-sniper" which is definitely worth more than the $75 you paid for it, even in the condition it may be in.

As far as the condition, you can take it back and I know Big 5 has said they will replace them within a year if you find a defect, and I would just tell them that this is a possible safety hazard. *As a side note, the three Mosin Nagants in my signature came from Big 5.

While it could be that, there's really no way to know without pictures. From the photo's i've seen of ex-snipers, it didn't look as if the holes were 'welded' shut.

Perhaps the OP could post some pictures?

 

[rustymaggot]

why didnt you inspect the gun when you were buying it?

 

[KINGMAX]

tAKE IT BACK IF YOU CAN

TAKE IT BACK IF YOU CAN

 

[bvchurch]

@PirateJoe, now that I think about it I agree, but i am assuming its pretty safe to assume this is an ex sniper.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's either an ex-sniper or ex-bubba. Either way it's doubtful there are any safety concerns.

 

[fatelk]

Photos!

Got some good photos!
Cosmoline, thanks for the photos, looks like the first one.
I wish I had taken the time to inspect it closer. I was especially surprised to see the condition of the throat, considering the good condition of the crown and bore. Am I correct to assume that this rifle has been shot a lot, but otherwise well taken care of? There is very little pitting in the bore.

I also assume that the reconditioning was a Russian arsenal thing, not Century? I've read horror stories regarding their employment of intoxicated primates.

 

[Cosmoline]

You'd have to see if the holes line up with a mount to be 100% sure, it looks to me like a classic PU ex sniper. The date is right on the money. Good find! There should also be a square with a slash through it on the metal and/or stock indicating that it was rearsenaled by the Soviets when they were revamping their firearms in the late 40's and early 50's. That's likely when the new stock was put on and the scope mount removed.

Removal of the PU does *NOT* mean the rifle had failed or worn out, BTW. PU scopes and their mounts continued to be used on Soviet arsenal firearms for many decades, and are still in use. So they'd take them off the older Mosins for use on newer semiautomatic snipers. If the rifle had been found unfit, it never would have been rearsenaled.

What's this throat erosion you're talking about? Keep in mind that it's standard to have some distance between the end of the bullet and the start of the rifling on Soviet Mosins. The bullets run up to 200 grains and the ogives are high. I have a custom load using 215 grain RN bullets with an incredibly high ogive that still chamber in all Russian and Soviet Mosins.

 

[fatelk]

This rifle has lots of markings all over it, but I don't see a square with a slash. There's something that looks like a square with a u in it and another square with a smaller square and a slash on the edge of it. These are small marks. The numbers all match but they are a forced match for the most part.
Please excuse my ignorance, but what does PU stand for in reference to scope mounts?

The bore- from the muzzle the rifling looks sharp and good. From the breach it looks very shallow and rounded.

 

[Cosmoline]

It can also look like this:





The erosion on the rifling should not be a problem. As long as the crown is good, accuracy should be OK. The biggest hinderance to accuracy is too much contact with the stock, and this can be fixed by simple shims to raise the receiver. There are several older posts on this in the rifle forum.

"PU" is just one of the types of WWII era scopes the Soviets fielded:

http://www.mosinnagant.net/sniper section/default.asp

The PU is a very rugged, simple scope of fixed 3.5 power. They're primitive, but have been used all over the globe with success. They're still pretty easy to find. Some folks have actually re-sniperized ex snipers. This fellow fixes them up for a living:

http://home.midsouth.rr.com/w2sniper/

 

[fatelk]

Cosmoline- thanks for your help. You really know Mosin Nagants.
I'm pretty convinced now that it is indeed an ex sniper. When I look at the inside where the bolt that holds the trigger spring comes through, it looks exactly like the inside bolt holes in the photos I posted, which tells me they are original holes. I hope that makes sense.

I can't find any square with a slash like your photos. The closest thing to that is a diamond with a slash on the receiver next to the arsenal stamp of a triangle with an arrow. The stock is stamped with a 5 in a circle in a couple of places, but no square and slash.

I've pretty much decided now not to return it so long as it's safe to fire, and the consensus seems to be that it is. I'm happy that it has some cool historical value, above the fact that it's a WWII MN. One question I have, do ex-snipers have much value above what I paid? Is there much demand? Does anyone know what it would cost to restore one, or the cost of an original mount? I have a feeling I don't have the money to do it right; may end up selling it to someone who does, or just keep it as is. I don't want to do a mediocre job on it and have people calling me Bubba.

I might get to the range tomorrow and come back with an accuracy report, but for now I must sign off, eat dinner, and help my wife get the kids off to bed.

Cosmoline- sometime I will ask you what you know about my 1897 marked M39 with the SIG barrel.
Thanks again!

 

[Hoppy590]

sometime I will ask you what you know about my 1897 marked M39 with the SIG barrel.
Thanks again!

its not worth anything. il give ya 100$ for it

 

[Mauserguy]

What you have is an ex sniper. That is a good thing. They are rather uncommon. It is a sniper rifle that we converted back to a standard infantry rifle by removing the scope mount and filling the mounting holes. I bet it is an excelent shooter. Have fun.
Mauserguy

 

[Cosmoline]

do ex-snipers have much value above what I paid?

They were worth quite a bit, but there's been a slight glut of them lately. Still, my bet is they will ultimately have a value about double a standard 91/30.

 

[fatelk]

Range report

I just got back from the range. I took a box of Hungarian light ball, some Czech hollow bullet training rounds, and 12 reloads- 190gr. .311 HP bullets with IRM 4064 and Winchester brass.

I'm going to venture a guess and say the scope was taken off way back when because it is no longer capable of sniper accuracy. The best group was about 3.75" at 100 yards with the reloads. The worst was about 4.5" with the hollow bullets, though actually a flyer made it more like 6".

I usually can do very well with open sights. Even with the horrendous trigger pull of this thing I should be able to shoot better than that. Speaking of sights, to get it to hit the middle of the target, I had to drift the front sight over so far it looks wierd. That can't be right?

Looks like this is a four minute rifle, at best. For the price, what can you expect? It's still a fun rifle.

 

[benelli12]

I was going to say it was an ex sniper, but it looks like cosmoline already beat me to it,

The ones that were "drilled and tapped" usually means they were specially picked from the rest of the batch of mosins to be more accurate for various conditions I dont know.

Another +1 on a good find. Hopefully with open sights it will hit where you aim, but thats another reason to get a scope.

I have 2 mosins that are very accurate, but they hit feet from where I aim, kind of frustrating . But I guess you get what you pay for with some exceptions, not that these are bad guns, they just have bad sights.

 

[bvchurch]

I would try some different rounds, specifically the Czech silver tip (works well in mine, though I am a new shooter, so getting down to a 4" group I was happy), or some new production. Everyone on gunboards and what not pretty much agrees that each mosin seems to have its own favorite ammunition. The Czech hollow point is the stuff that I have read the most mediocre stuff about as far as surplus ammunition. (Just make sure to clean well).

The trigger pull to me does not seem that strange, but to my father (who is much more experienced than I naturally) it was just a weird, long trigger pull with what he noted as a bit of delay. I guess I will find out more when I actually acquire some more weapons. As far as the sights, if it works, it works. It might be possible that not everything is lined up correctly, and thus you can always take the rifle apart and reseat everything. To be honest I don't think the sights are the best just from seeing other rifles.

As far as marks, you can learn alot about your rifle as far as its history, but do not be surprised to not see that mark on the stock with the square and the slash (thought to be a mark by a Ukranian refurb) as I have one that appears to barely have the mark (it seems like it was penciled in).

You did hit something right though, for $150 or less you can get a rifle that works, shoots (usually pretty consistent as to how far off I have noticed), has ammo that is available for 10 to 15 cents a round. At my local range the watchman stated to me that these are "military rifles. Pull the trigger and they go bang". I mean, yes the Garands are nice weapons, but one must think of how many weapons the soviets turned out on machinery, that I can only guess, was nowhere near that of the quality of US machinery.

 

[silverlance]

Get another M39.

I was PO'ed at my mosins for a long time, because I bought 4 from Big 5 (all matching, 91/30, m38, etc) and none of them seemed to be able to hit anything worth a dang. The only Mosin that I had that could hit what I aimed at was an repro 91/30 sniper with a PU scope on it. And even that one suffered greatly from sticky bolt issues.

Cosmo kept saying, "the m39 is way better... not all nagants are the same... big 5 is junk.." etc.

i wound up selling 3 of them andkeeping only the sniper repro.

Anyway, one day Aimsurplus had m39 gunsmith specials for $179 shipped. I figured, well, that's cheap enough..

It is now my favorite rifle. With CZ silvertip I hit on Saturday a mountain dew plastic bottle shaken up that a buddy stuck on top of the berm at 150 yards, iron sights only, shooting standing and off hand with no sling. Everyone was impressed, and all the guys with thieir cal-EBRs came over and wanted to get some recoil.

I didn't even have to walk the shots in, I just shouldered the rifle, took 2 short breaths, held the 3rd, and.... bang!

i'll tell you, my m39 is beat up all to hell. 11 repairs to the stock, 5% finish, and for about 2 months i had been shooting it with a chipped firing pin because i hadn't seen the damage. it has since been fixed (thanks to tennesee gun parts), and today I blew up one clay tossed onto the hillside after another at the 75 yard line, also standing up.

don't worry about recoil, either... I now regularly go thorugh about 60 rounds of bulgarian light ball (it's not very accurate, but cheap) and 40 rounds of cz silvertip each time i go. no PAST, or recoil pad, just standing and holding the gun properly.

the key is not to tense up all your muscles, you have to put the gun sort of on your pectoral and just sway with the recoil.

I love my M39!

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm going to venture a guess and say the scope was taken off way back when because it is no longer capable of sniper accuracy. The best group was about 3.75" at 100 yards with the reloads

That's not too bad for surplus ball. Try some Wolf 200's and 140's or S&B 180's if you have them. Also, have you checked the stock fit to see if the barrel is getting pinched? This would explain the windage problem. But as Silverlance points out, you're going fare better with a Finn.

 

[Gord]

Lucky bastard. If you don't want it, I'll take it.

 

[cracked butt]

Congratulations, you got dandy 91/30 the first time around.

 

[fatelk]

Went to the range again

I remembered I had a box of Czech silvertipped ammo that's been setting on a shelf for a couple years. I took the 91/30 and the M39 both out today. The silvertip really is more accurate, no doubt about it!

I shot 12 rounds through the 91/30 at 100 yards. If you discount the two flyers that took it out to 4.25", I had a real nice group of ten shots in 2.4". I shot a couple more groups with the Bulgarian light ball and did worse than before.

I shot a 9 round group with the M39 and silvertips; had one flyer but the other 8 were in a vertical string about 2.7".

Of course I had to take the AR too, sub MOA all day long, just to remind myself what real accuray is.
So now I'm going to do some research into MN stock fitting, then save a little money and order some more silvertip Czech ammo.