Is the 16 gauge going extinct?
- Thread starter Big Boomer
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RNB65
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Yep, I have no trouble finding 16ga shells. I just don't have anything to shoot them with. I'm still looking for a decent 16ga scattergun that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
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RNB65
Member
The problem is that most 16's made these days are made using 12ga frames and barrels. The result is a gun that's as heavy and bulky as a 12ga and you lose all the benefits of the 16ga.
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marksman13
Member
I agree RNB65, most of today's 16s are bulky and heavy. My grandfather left me a Remington Sportman's 58 and that shotgun is a dream to shoot. It is always a favorite at the skeet range.
FYI - there's a website and forum for the 16 Gauge Society - specifically for 16ga enthusiasts who get together for shoots from time to time. Very friendly folk who've invited me out on occasion (I'm sure it's just the accent that gets them to invite me).
No doubt it is, and with sentimental value as a major plus! Classic guns have intrinsic value, and you use whatever ammo works in them; it's the gun you're really interested in.
The thing is, when you see the real 16 Gauge advocates, it seems they're comparing one 50-year-old gun to another 50-year-old gun.
Swing a new 391 Urika 12 Gauge, and it'll feel as good as that old Sportsman 58 in 16. Sure, that old Remington feels a lot better than the old 12 Gauge Remington, but like I wrote above, that's because the old 12 Gauge weighed 8 lb. or more. Some of those old ribbed barrels are sluggish, to boot, though the plain barrels can be fine.
I'll be the first to say that the current Ruger Red Label and Browning Citori Lightning in 12 both are way overweight as field guns, and they don't feel so great, at least to me. However, there are many competitors out there that aren't. Swing a 686 White Onyx field gun in 12; it feels better than the old 16s. Try a newer ultralight from Browning, Beretta, Franchi, Guerini.
This whole canard about the 16 offering something to "knowledgable shotgunners" is really false. A knowledgable shotgunner, to me, would be someone who knows what a good modern gun feels like, someone whose prejudices are not lost in the 1950s. It would also be someone who knows that 1 oz. loads pattern very well from a 12 and acceptably in a modern 20 if you need to stretch the gun's capabilities a bit.
The way I see it, there are two main reasons to shoot 16's:
1. An identity. A web site for people who are into doing something that makes them think they're different. A way to differentiate oneself, in his own mind, from the drunk trailer trash out on opening day with their 12 Gauges.
2. A way to shoot some really neat old guns, built before they figured out how to make a 12 Gauge that felt good to shoot, that was good for something other than goose and trap. For example, I'm not so fond of some old autos in 12, but in 16...
#2 makes sense to me. I think you can tell what I think of #1.
Now none of this suggests that there's anything wrong with the 16. I'm sure 14 and 18 would work well, too. It's just that they're hard to find. The questions are, "Is it worth the trouble and expense of buying a new 16 Gauge? Does it REALLY do something that a modern 12 Gauge gun -- not something from the '50s, but a modern one -- doesn't do as well? Can you really tell the difference, when every gun design is different, and you can choose to buy whichever one you want?"
marksman13
Member
Armedbear, first of all, I see your point. The 16 gauge in most of today's configurations is rather pointless, but what if modern manufacturers would build a new shotgun around the 16 gauge. If built around the 16 gauge from the ground up the gun would most likely swing and carry better than a comparable 12 gauge. Will a major manufacturer do that? Hell no. there isn't enough market for it.
I for one do like the fact that I shoot a shotgun gauge that not everyone uses. I don't consider my 16 gauge superior to everyone else's choice of 12 and 20 gauge, I just like being different. I've also been known to deer hunt with an AR-15, just because there aren't many people in my area who use them.
Do I think the 16 gauge is the most versatile, amazing chambering for a shotgun? Nope, I think that distinction belongs to the 12 gauge. It is hard to beat the 16 gauge's compromise between light recoil and energy delivered on target though. Not to mention the Sportsman's 58's light weight and trim lines.
Do I think the 16 gauge is going to make a huge comeback? Nah. the 12 gauge and 20 gauge have solidified their place in the market and will likely never let them go. Do I think the 16 gauge will ever become extinct, no way. There are too many people like me who like having something different than the masses and enjoy shooting those old shotguns.
I for one do like the fact that I shoot a shotgun gauge that not everyone uses. I don't consider my 16 gauge superior to everyone else's choice of 12 and 20 gauge, I just like being different. I've also been known to deer hunt with an AR-15, just because there aren't many people in my area who use them.
Do I think the 16 gauge is the most versatile, amazing chambering for a shotgun? Nope, I think that distinction belongs to the 12 gauge. It is hard to beat the 16 gauge's compromise between light recoil and energy delivered on target though. Not to mention the Sportsman's 58's light weight and trim lines.
Do I think the 16 gauge is going to make a huge comeback? Nah. the 12 gauge and 20 gauge have solidified their place in the market and will likely never let them go. Do I think the 16 gauge will ever become extinct, no way. There are too many people like me who like having something different than the masses and enjoy shooting those old shotguns.
TrapperReady
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AB - I agree with most of what you say above; however, I think one statement needs a little clarification.
I don't think it's false at all*. What I take from that idea is that a "knowledgable shotgunner" wouldn't automatically write off a 16ga as either not being "good enough" or "you can't find ammo for it". I think a lot of folks are stuck in the 12ga or 20ga mode and will automatically pass up 16ga guns. Those who know about the 16ga, both strengths and weaknesses, wouldn't be so quick to pass one up.
* Unless someone is trying to argue that the 16ga is superior to the 12ga.
I don't think it's false at all*. What I take from that idea is that a "knowledgable shotgunner" wouldn't automatically write off a 16ga as either not being "good enough" or "you can't find ammo for it". I think a lot of folks are stuck in the 12ga or 20ga mode and will automatically pass up 16ga guns. Those who know about the 16ga, both strengths and weaknesses, wouldn't be so quick to pass one up.
* Unless someone is trying to argue that the 16ga is superior to the 12ga.
MCgunner
Member
The steel shot laws did the 16 no favors, either. Sort of a nail in the coffin effect.
I started hunting with an H&R 16 ga. single shot. I bought my first shotgun when I was 13, it's a Stevens M-77F in 16 ga. I still have the gun, and took it out grouse hunting 2 weekends ago. I found ammo at Wally-World for $5.00 a box for game load 7 1/2 shot, which I use for grouse. They had high brass 4, 6, and 7 1/2 for $10.00. I didn't think it was too bad, actually.
I still had 2 boxes of high brass #6 Winchesters that I bought at the old Grants store. The price sticker on the box was $2.37. I probably bought them in the late 70's. I shot them and they are still fine.
Browning makes their BPS in 16 ga. I looked at one at Cabelas this past fall. It's built on a 20 ga frame, so it light like my old Stevens. I actually thought about buying one to compliment my 12 ga Ithaca and 20 ga Remington Model 17. Something from each era. Maybe if I "find" $550 that's what I'll do with it.
I still had 2 boxes of high brass #6 Winchesters that I bought at the old Grants store. The price sticker on the box was $2.37. I probably bought them in the late 70's. I shot them and they are still fine.
Browning makes their BPS in 16 ga. I looked at one at Cabelas this past fall. It's built on a 20 ga frame, so it light like my old Stevens. I actually thought about buying one to compliment my 12 ga Ithaca and 20 ga Remington Model 17. Something from each era. Maybe if I "find" $550 that's what I'll do with it.
MASTEROFMALICE
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I have Sportsman 58 in 16 as well. I'll say this, it feels like it weighs half of what my Mossberg 9200 does.
Of course my dad has an Antonio Zoli 20 o/u and for feel that thing smokes them both.
Of course my dad has an Antonio Zoli 20 o/u and for feel that thing smokes them both.
As I wrote, I wasn't suggesting it doesn't work, or that there's anything inherently wrong with it.
But while I can find ammo for it, the selection of components to build a great shell myself, and the selection of types of commercial ammo (shot, velocity, etc.) are both very limited compared to every other common bore. Prices are quite high, as well. Sure, a 13 Gauge is much, much harder to load for, but while it did exist, it hasn't been produced for a long, long time.
It weighs about as much as a Wingmaster LC in 12 Gauge, and a bit more than a Beretta 686 O/U in 12. If I really HAD to have a BPS, I'd want the 16 -- and the straight-grip version seems like a helluva pheasant gun. But again, the BPS is a too-heavy gun to start with; bummer Browning can't make a better copy of the Ithaca than they do.
I think the thing to recognize is that bore doesn't matter all that much; a shotgun is not a rifle. If you hit a bird with 4 pellets of #7.5 shot, it doesn't matter one bit whether those pellets came from a 10 Gauge or a 28. What matters is how the shotgun feels when you use it, and, to a lesser extent, recoil. It's quite true that a lot of old or old-style guns like the BPS feel a lot better in 16 than in 12.
Also, I feel like 12 is overkill for bird hunting. I know that it really doesn't matter, but it just feels like it.
I do understand why aesthetics would also drive someone to want the 16. I just hope that nobody out there is trying to talk some young newbie into getting a 16; I think that would be a disservice.And between the incredible availability of 12 Gauge shells and components, and the limited availability of same in 16, and modern manufacturing that can make 12 Gauge guns much sleeker and better-handling without trashing durability, the 16 is not poised for a comeback except to facilitate using those neat old guns that are coming out of closets more and more.
TrapperReady
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Quite right. Lots and lots of people who grew up in the '50s and '60s cut their teeth on the 16ga. The guns from that era do handle and balance nicely and the ammo isn't to hard to find. Any of the major sporting goods stores in our area carry a variety of 16ga ammo, which is slightly more expensive than 12ga or 20ga, but far less expensive (for most loadings) than 28ga or .410.
As I've said before, I wouldn't recommend a 16ga for shooting clay targets. As a hunting gun, they rock.
With regards to availability of different types of ammo... there's probably too much variety in a lot of cases. Not to sound curmudgeonly, but sometimes it's like buying toothpaste. When I was growing up, you could get Crest and Colgate. Now, there is a flippin' wall full of choices. None of which works much/any better than good old-school minty-chalk flavored stuff. Same with ammo. Options are good, but dang... what can't I do with 1 oz of #7.5 lead at 1250fps?
marksman13
Member
A 16 gauge will work in all of the circumstances you mentioned, Armedbear. Is it the best choice for all of those? Nope, but it will work effetively. The 16 gauge is a niche gauge. I have a use for it. It appears that you don't.
MCgunner
Member
Yeah, someone point me to a decent steel shot offering in 16. Might be one out there, never seen one in any stores. My old 16 is full choked anyway, most are fixed and I doubt many were authorized for steel.
Exotic, eh? LOL!
Exotic, eh? LOL!
I remember when I was 16, in the late 60s, you could buy a Browning Automatic 5 in 12 16 or 20 ga and each was a perfect reduction from the larger size of about 2/3 scale. They were among the most beautiful pieces of equipment I had ever seen. I chose the 12, BTW, because even in those days the handwriting was on the wall. Stores were stocking shells in 12 and 20 ga and a few boxes of 16, just in case.
A couple years ago (maybe 5) Browning put out a run of Superposed in 16 ga and I thought they had lost their minds. Apparently collectors had requested them enough to justify the run.
A couple years ago (maybe 5) Browning put out a run of Superposed in 16 ga and I thought they had lost their minds. Apparently collectors had requested them enough to justify the run.
Loyalist Dave
Member
Wow that's alot to chew upon. I'll bite too. Let's talk brand new, off the shelf shotguns. If one shoots hunt-tests, one needs a breech loader, either O/U or SxS. (I prefer the SxS, but that's me) The semi-autos you mentioned above wont work. That leaves the Beretta O/U at a cost of $1400 - $1750, the Franchi Renaissance at $1500 - $1900, the Browning Citori from $1800-$2900, and my 16 gauge Huglu at...., $1000 - $1200 (mine was $800 two years ago).
A 12 patterns 1 oz very well, and a 20 patterns 1 oz acceptably, I agree, but nobody that I have found says they do so as well as the 16 gauge. It might not matter to the bird, clay or game, but it does matter to some shooters. I wasn't born until 1963, (Started shooting shotguns in 1975 - Rem 1100 20 ga.); didn't shoot a 16 until 2006, and my dad got his 16 gauge after me, so my predjudices aren't set in the 1950's. I prefer my 16 to my dad's Belgian made Browning O/U, skeet, in 12, so I am comparing a new 16 to "a 12 after they learned how to make a 12 for something other than geese or trap". I also agree that a gas powered semi-auto feels better than the Browning Sweet 16, but I can't use either.
So comparing modern guns to modern guns..., I can use my Huglu 16 SxS (or an O/U from the same company) in my shooting activities, while the above semi-autos are prohibited, it cost me from $600 - $1000 less than the guns you mentioned that were my other options, shells from Estate cost me 70 cents more per box than 12 ga from the same company, I got the straight (no pistol grip) stock that I prefer at no extra charge. Oh, almost forgot, I get better results at the table using my 16 than I did with a light 12 on quail or dove, but that's subjective on my part.
I don't think any of this is a canard in any way.
LD
Well, yeah. That's one reason I'm not interested in buying another semiauto, actually. I just thought it wouldn't be relevant to many people, if the list only included real shotguns.
Horsepuckey. Olympic trap shooters have experimented extensively with lighter 12 Gauge loads over the years, and undersquare loads tend to pattern best, especially as you bump up velocity. It's been thoroughly tested. There's no reason to believe that 1 oz. patterns as well in a 16 as in a 12, actually -- though the difference doesn't matter in the real world.
Superposed? Hell, that's one of the heaviest beasts ever made, and the design dates to the late 1920s. I happen to like them for some things, but that's no modern shotgun by any stretch of the imagination (and furthermore, I don't at all like how the 12's balance with barrels under 30"). But comparing the SxS to an ancient beast of an O/U is apples and oranges, as I said in my posts above. It's not the bore that makes the greater difference here.
That's one way to look at it. Depends on what one thinks of Turkish shotguns. For cost comparison, it would make more sense to compare a Huglu 16 with a Huglu 12, not with a Beretta O/U. They are available in 12 Gauge, right, which means a 12 still would have a lower OAC. Not that you should have gotten a 12; it just means that you really still are paying extra to have the 16.
What birds are you shooting for hunt tests? What shot size are you using in your neck of the woods?
(I'm gunning for a utility test in a few weeks, and while my 20 with small birdshot worked fine on Saturday when we used bobwhite, I'm trying to decide what to use for pheasant and chukar. I think I have to use #7.5, which seems to be insufficient for pheasant, no matter what bore it comes from.)
marksman13
Member
Armedbear, that load would work for all but the ducks. Hell, it would work then, but it would be illegal. Get close enough to the turkeys and you can kill them with a full choked .410 all day. Is it the best option? Nope, but a 16 gauge with 7 1/2s will kill a turkey.
On the rabbits, I hunt them every year with a 16 gauge and 7 1/2s and routinely kill rabbits at 30 yards. I don't think I have ever had a shot at a rabbit more than 30 yards away. Not running dogs anyway.
And I don't think I have ever been on a piece of private land that restricted hunters to #8 shot. I don't think I have ever hunted anything except ducks and geese that restricted shot sizes. Most of the time here it is public land that restricts shot size, and it's usually just a ban on anything larger than #2 or BBs.
On the rabbits, I hunt them every year with a 16 gauge and 7 1/2s and routinely kill rabbits at 30 yards. I don't think I have ever had a shot at a rabbit more than 30 yards away. Not running dogs anyway.
And I don't think I have ever been on a piece of private land that restricted hunters to #8 shot. I don't think I have ever hunted anything except ducks and geese that restricted shot sizes. Most of the time here it is public land that restricts shot size, and it's usually just a ban on anything larger than #2 or BBs.
There are still people who quietly kill ducks with .410s and lead shot, here and there, or so I'm told. And I'm not one of them.
Regardless, I won't be shooting #7.5 lead at ducks on public land, from any shotgun. And I've been dissatisfied with the performance of small birdshot on rabbits; I'm using #6 now for a clean, humane kill. Our rabbits are skittish and fast, and shots can be fairly long.
I "get" that you can do a lot with #7.5; that's what most of my ammo and shot bags have in them. I really do like having a variety of loads available, though.
And I'm not one of them.Regardless, I won't be shooting #7.5 lead at ducks on public land, from any shotgun. And I've been dissatisfied with the performance of small birdshot on rabbits; I'm using #6 now for a clean, humane kill. Our rabbits are skittish and fast, and shots can be fairly long.
I "get" that you can do a lot with #7.5; that's what most of my ammo and shot bags have in them. I really do like having a variety of loads available, though.
Ooops! I guess I must be getting senile. I googled it and no 16 ga Superposed have been made except for a prototype kept by the factory. The 16s I saw must have been model 525 one of which was for sale for a mere $1,325.
I thought they were Superposed because the guy had racks of gorgeous vintage superposeds.
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