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Is the 1911 an out dated LEO firearm

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by AWMP, Jul 19, 2008.

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  1. AWMP

    AWMP Member

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    Ok ok , target in the open I got it.
    But is the 1911 an out dated LEO firearm?
    There are many high capacity .45s on the market (XD45, H&K, Glock, Smith Wesson, etc), does the mag capacity show the 1911 (8rd) weakness?
    Pros and Cons?
     
  2. ojibweindian

    ojibweindian Member

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    In my opinion, the 1911 has, as pros, the best trigger of any other semi-auto design, great pointability, good ergonomics, a nice flat profile for easy CCW, lots of aftermarket parts available, and is as reliable as the fabled Glock.

    It's biggest drawback is limited magazine capacity. That, however, can be rectified to a degree by doing reload drills on a regular basis.

    As far as it being outdated as an LEO firearm, I'd say no. It's still a very capable defensive weapon for those who put in the practice time.
     
  3. skoro

    skoro Member

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    My take is that cops want a double action, mainly to prevent accidental discharge.
     
  4. NGIB

    NGIB Member

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    Why is magazine capacity the factor so many use to judge whether a gun is good or bad? If you can't shoot correctly, 30 round mags are useless. I feel quite comfortable and safe with 8 rounds of .45 as I know I can put them where I need to. I'm not a fan of spray and pray...
     
  5. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    "Outdated" is not the word I would use. I think it is because most LE agencies issue firearms and - rightly or wrongly - they largely prefer DA or DAO guns for liability issues.
     
  6. gcrookston

    gcrookston member

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    as much as I like the 1911, it has been out-dated for many years. I would take a Sig 220 over a 1911. You can carry a 1911 locked and cocked, but I'm unfortable with that. a P220, you can carry a round chambered, hammer down and ready without worry
     
  7. Dave Markowitz

    Dave Markowitz Member

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    I hope it's not outdated. My local PD (Plymouth Township, PA) issues Kimber 1911s as the standard pistol.
     
  8. 420Stainless

    420Stainless Member

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    Ordinarily I disdain the capacity argument and haven't even bothered to purchase 12 round mags. for my 229. However, as part of their job LEOs sometimes might go into situations (intentionally or unintentionally) that involve multiple bad guys. IMO High cap might buy enough time for a patrol officer's partner or backup to get involved before a reload is required. Unlikely, but I would want more if my job involved pursuit.

    As a civilian, my only worry is getting away. Also, for LEOs that work in teams, the 1911 appears to be ideal as so many units appear to prefer them.
     
  9. chieftain

    chieftain Member

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    More rounds are ALWAYS better than not enough. You need 1 more round than your fight will last. (I don't want my weapon locked back and empty.) But good or bad, nope, just another consideration.

    I carry a Colt Government with a 7 round mag, daily for CCW, and around the house. I compete with 8 rounders or 10 rounders depending on the competition. IDPA vs USPSA vs NRA Bullseye vs Steel Challenge (yea I know USPSA owns Steel Challenge now), bowling pin shoots etc....

    With that said, I do like to carry one of my Highpowers from time to time. I frankly do not shoot any differently with the 14 rounds in the Browning than I do the 8 in the Colt.

    A lot of folks trying to justify their lower round count in the weapon they carry, by ASSUMING anyone with one more bullet in their gun of pray and spray shooting. Why? You and I prefer a lower round count weapon. That's the end of it.

    When in a firefight you can control your fire with 5,6,7,8 or 9 rounds why are YOU unable to control your weapon if it has 16 rounds in it?

    I have seen as many folks spray and pray with a revolver as I have with a Glock.

    It's about the man not the weapon. Your apparent inability to control yourself when you have a high capacity weapon is your problem not mine.

    I used to shoot at the same club as Robby Leatham. He shoots his XD as well as his 1911, he doesn't spray and pray with his high cap guns. Suggest some training for that apparent problem of yours.

    I think, and apparently a bunch of other folks still believe there is a place for a reliable 1911 full size pistol in law enforcement.

    May I recommend the 10-8Forums. A whole bunch of LEO's who most are pro 1911. The fellow who owns it is a IIRC south Florida LEO still on the job, and a noted 1911 Gunsmith. Hilton Yam.

    He offers good advice, and the good and the bad of the LEO selecting and carrying a 1911.

    10-8Forums.com

    Go figure.

    Fred
     
  10. jesse485

    jesse485 Member

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    I would think it's outdated for simplicity's sake. First, the officer must undo a retention strap + whatever other retention devices they choose for the holster, and then have to flip off a safety. After all that, my fingers would be tired.
     
  11. bodyarmorguy

    bodyarmorguy Member

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    Hi all.....just joined and this was the first thread that I came to. Fingers tired after releasing a retention strap and disengaging the thumb safety??? Sounds like you might be too tired to shoot after one pull of a double action trigger system as well.

    The 1911 is actually making a big comeback in law enforcement. I started in law enforcement in 1985 carrying a 1911...carried HK P7's, Glocks and the ocassional Browing Hi Power but always seemed to go back to a 1911 and had one on my hip the day I retired in December 2006.

    Many agencies authorize the 1911 and more and more agencies are making that their issue sidearm, Tacoma, WA for example.

    I don't think it's outdated and it's far from dead.
     
  12. chieftain

    chieftain Member

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    The way I shoot my 1911's and my carry Colts, the way or manner in which I grip the weapon "automatically" turns the weapon 'on'. I don't flip anything. AS I grasp the weapon out of the holster the safety will be off, and the weapon is turned on. No active thought is given to it.

    Apparently YMMV.

    Go figure.

    Fred
     
  13. MICHAEL T

    MICHAEL T Member

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    It would work fine if officers had proper training and range time . But most police really get neither . So they are issued Glocks Cheap relieable and lots of ammo if and it always seems to be needed. .
    I am still wanting to know how come a citizen defends himself with 2 to 4 rounds and police need 40 or more shots and more than 1 guy shooting.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  14. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Of course not.

    People are just enchanted with higher capacity plastic guns that are not carried in the "dreaded" cocked and locked mode. :banghead:

    Cocked and locked is just as safe as any other method when there is a round down the pipe. Maybe safer. :)

    Atta boy bodyarmorguy. Excellent first post. :D
     
  15. Eyesac

    Eyesac Member

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    Oh come on people, if you can accomplish with a 1911 what you can accomplish w/ a high cap poly pistol, why not take the high cap? Unless you really like your 1911, in which case your mind is made up. What's the big deal?
     
  16. jesse485

    jesse485 Member

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    I think you missed the sarcasm. Oh well, my point was that retention holsters (level 2 and 3 especially) already have you doing a series of movements just to get the gun out of the holster. Do you really want to add another thing to remember in a time of stress and danger? I would have no problem with concealed carry of a single action, but I carry with only open top holsters, so no hand tango to get my gun out.
     
  17. variablebinary

    variablebinary Member

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    Yes, it's outdated, but it isnt obsolete. There is a difference

    It's not a matter of spray and pray. You want to be as far from slide lock as possible if you need to clear leather. Having more rounds prepares you for more scenarios.

    Example: Trolley Square, Utah. Within a couple of seconds the off-duty cop came to the conclusion that his 1911's capacity wasnt up to the task at hand. He said something like "I've only got 8 rounds, I cant be doing this". At that moment, all the fables about .45 "knockdown power " and big holes went out the window. It was all about capacity at that moment.
     
  18. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    There is an advantage to magazine capacity -- as Farnham points out, the most common stoppage in action is running out of ammunition.

    But that's not the only factor to consider. Ergonometrics, reliability, convenience, and effectiveness also factor in.

    When you add it all up, the M1911 is certainly as good as anything out there.
     
  19. MrAnteater

    MrAnteater Member

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    The 1911 has stood the test of time. Is it outdated for LEO use?

    I think from a cost standpoint it is. I don't know what agencies pay for firearms in bulk purchase but I know as a LEO you can purchase a new Glock for a little over $400.

    You certinally aren't going to find new 1911's for that price.

    The issue of magazine capacity and weight also go against the 1911.

    Bottom line is the 1911 has had it's day and though there might be some sporadic resurgence in the LEO community, better technology has replaced it.
     
  20. FlyinBryan

    FlyinBryan Member

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    the swat force one small town uses them exclusively, in fact, the swat team then recommended them to other divisions in the town.

    the town is l.a.

    One of the most elite tactical law enforcement units in America, the LAPD™ Special Investigation Section - or SIS - was formed in 1965. Specially trained in surveillance, these plain-clothes professionals often stake out and covertly follow violent criminals until they can make an arrest during the commission of a crime. SIS is also a trendsetter, developing tactics and testing special weapons before they are generally issued. Due to the nature of their assignments, SIS Detectives depend on their pistols to a much greater extent than uniformed officers or tactical team members.

    In 2002, LAPD™ SWAT selected a Kimber 1911 .45 ACP as their duty pistol, purchased approximately 160 units and placed them in service. In 2005, SWAT Team members put SIS Detectives in contact with Kimber, and the Detectives requested that Kimber work with them to create a duty pistol that met their high standards and unique requirements. The stated reasons for making this change were the superior accuracy of the 1911 platform and SWAT's satisfaction with their Kimber pistols. In development for over two years, Kimber SIS pistols are now a reality.


    for what its worth, i think its still the finest pistol platform ever designed.

    they do now have hi-cap versions of the design, with the same trigger operation.
     
  21. RNB65

    RNB65 Member

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    Yes. A .40cal Glock (or similar poly gun) carries nearly twice the firepower at half the weight and is just a reliable.

    The 1911 was an amazing gun in its day a century ago. Today, it's still a great range/competition/self defense shooter. But as a primary LEO sidearm, it's purely an anachronism.
     
  22. FlyinBryan

    FlyinBryan Member

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    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104663854

    i know it says 425, i just picked the first one on the page.

    8 is enough for me, and my commander weighs 26 oz.


    100 years later its still the best combination for accuracy and reliability.
     
  23. Defensory

    Defensory Member

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    The 1911 outdated for LE work?! Here's only a small sampling of the elite LE entities that currently issue the 1911 as their primary carry handgun:

    LAPD Special Weapons and Tactics--The nation's most elite police SWAT team.

    LAPD Special Investigation Section--An elite plain clothes unit that specializes in bringing particularly dangerous criminals to justice.

    FBI Hostage Rescue Team---The nation's most elite federal HRT.

    Though they're not LE agencies, elite military units like U.S. Army Delta Force and U.S. Marine Corps Force Recon still use the 1911 extensively.
     
  24. outerlimit

    outerlimit Member

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    One thing that I think many people don't take into a count when considering high capacity .45's is the mere weight of 14 or so rounds of 45ACP.

    Also, $400 1911's are certainly out there. And they don't seem to have any more problems than any other $400 autos.
     
  25. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    That's the best answer so far!

    The average cop is not a gunny person, and could care less what gun the department issues him / her, as long as he / she is able to qualify with it.

    A such, a cheap Glock with no safety, loose plastic sights, and an 8 pound trigger is probably as good as anything else.

    You do see a lot of 1911's being used by SWAT teams and such, but those guys train and shoot more in a week then a street cop does in a year.

    rcmodel
     
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