Is the 45 colt the perfect round for heavy big bore subsonics

[AJC1]

I enjoy reading all the developments and technology, and spend hours pouring over my Lyman manual. It appears on paper at least that a 45c using a 250-270 bullet is the perfect big bore for hunting subsonic. A full power load is right in the 1050 range that people try and load to. A lever with a can seems like hog medicine... what am I missing.

 

[General Geoff]

.45-70?

 

[AJC1]

.45-70?

Your really downloading in that situation unless your shooting 600s and that recoil is unpleasant... I do have both, just in case....

 

[General Geoff]

Well you DID say "heavy", and 600gr fits that bill way better than a 270gr slug out of a .45 Colt

 

[AJC1]

Well you DID say "heavy", and 600gr fits that bill way better than a 270gr slug out of a .45 Colt

Probably take almost that much to equal the penitration of a 240 30 cal. I'm not doing the sectional density math...

 

[Tallinar]

All I heard was: “Is the 45 colt the perfect round?”

Answer: Why yes, yes it is.

A warm .45 Colt has a lot in common with a light .45-70. I used to load 405 gr bullets to right about 1000 fps for .45-70 and found it very pleasant to shoot in a Handi-Rifle. No need to go up to 500 gr or beyond, where shoulder thumping becomes a concern.

For your specified application, seems like either would be a lot of fun.

 

[someguy2800]

I had a suppressed 44 magnum contender. It doesn’t take much to get to 1050 fps with a longer barrel and no cylinder gap. I shot 300 grain cast bullets at 1050 which took like 7 grains of 700x.

One advantage a 44 magnum will have is that it runs at much higher pressure than 45 colt so you can get to the upper end of subsonic using light charges of fast powder like tightgroup or 700x. These powders burn very fast which means the pressure also drops off very fast so there is less pressure in the barrel and less gas volume when the bullet un corks the barrel into the suppressor. You can also look at ruger only loads which will also easily do 1050 fps with fast powders. I’ll let you do your own research on the suitability of ruger loads in a lever action. The general consensus is that it is safe, but you will have to determine that for yourself.

 

[Charlie98]

A warm .45 Colt has a lot in common with a light .45-70.

I've always thought that, myself.

I have a H&R HandiRifle in .45 Colt... I think of it as my mini-.45-70. 300grn cast, loaded over Unique or IMR4227, works really, really well. Granted, I'm not running a can, but it would be easy enough to adapt the handload to that.

 

[Danw791]

I think the 45 Colt is better candidate for subsonic suppression than the 45-70 due to the fact it uses way less powder. I have and run a 45-70 suppressed but it’s main purpose is supersonic hunting loads. 350 grain bullet at 2000 fps sounds like an unsuppressed .22. Simply amazing.

 

[jmorris]

250-270 is lighter than anything I’ve used in my 458 socom.

 

[trekker73]

IMO it goes 45 acp, 44 special, 44 mag, 45 colt. The order is largely in line with powder capacity, the less there is the less powder position sensitivity and also noise. The colt is a fairly cavernous case like the 44 mag. I also prefer expanding HP on small/medium game as it drops them faster. 45 colt can use the 45 acp HD bullets which are good. Current subsonic gun is my new rossi lever firing 44 special. Gun I wish I had is a delisle carbine, one of the enfields converted to 45 acp in ww2. 45-70 supressed is fun for their owners but not in the running with the pistol cartridges regards powder savings and low noise.

 

[JShirley]

Walkalong developed some 320 gr Colt loads for me, a little over 2 years ago. Took 10 milk jugs to stop them.

The thread's in reloading. Velocity was around 700 fps from revolver, and load should be safe for all modern Colts.

I'm certain this load would still be well under 1000 fps from a rifle barrel.

John

 

[mcb]

Always wanted to get a suppressor for my 450 Bushmaster. I have a load worked up but have never found the expendable funds to buy the suppressor. 300 BO and my SDN-6 does most of what I need.

.458 405gr Remington SP bullet resized to 451 for use in my 450 Bushmaster.

 

[CoalTrain49]

It appears on paper at least that a 45c using a 250-270 bullet is the perfect big bore for hunting subsonic.

Not rain on your parade but 44 mag is a much more versatile cartridge. A reloader can duplicate any 45 C load and beyond.

https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloa...x?gtypeid=1&weight=240&shellid=33&bulletid=52

The velocities listed here are the results using a 7.5" barrel. A carbine barrel of 20" will deliver about 300 fps faster velocity. These are max loads so reduce those a bit and you have your 1050 MV.

45 Colt is a pretty neat package though for subsonic. So is 44 Special. Fun to note that 44 Spl loaded with 2400 and 250 gr lead has almost exactly the same MV as 45 Colt.

https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloa...x?gtypeid=1&weight=250&shellid=36&bulletid=67
https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloa...x?gtypeid=1&weight=250&shellid=32&bulletid=47

 

[25-20 WCF]

…A reloader can duplicate any 45 C load and beyond.…

Except for bullet diameter. The .45 will always win there. But for real-world practicality it’s pretty much a toss-up.



.

 

[redneck2]

Some years back I read an article where the author had cranked out some Ruger Only loads, something like 320 hardcast. He used them on Cape Buffalo. Got basically full length penetration.

To measure penetration he used wet newspaper. IIRC, they went about 48”.

 

[Frulk]

Coal Train…you replied….

“Not to rain on your parade but 44 mag is a much more versatile cartridge. A reloader can duplicate any 45 C load and beyond.”

As I reload for both calibers I’m genuinely interested in an example of what the .44 Mag can do at the HIGH end that the .45Colt in a Ruger or FA etc revolver can’t match.

I will say that the .45 Colt brass was never designed for those Ruger only loads and life expectancy is significantly curtailed when used with them. In fact, I shoot RUGER ONLY loads ONCE in new brass and then it goes into the 7.5-8 grains Unique rotation.

To me the .44 Mag vs .45 Colt debate has less to do with terminal performance at the high end and more to do with the practical life expectancy of the brass when .45 Colt is pushed hot and hard. That’s the only area I see the Colt giving up any ground to Elmers offspring.

 

[AJC1]

Coal Train…you replied….

“Not to rain on your parade but 44 mag is a much more versatile cartridge. A reloader can duplicate any 45 C load and beyond.”

As I reload for both calibers I’m genuinely interested in an example of what the .44 Mag can do at the HIGH end that the .45Colt in a Ruger or FA etc revolver can’t match.

I will say that the .45 Colt brass was never designed for those Ruger only loads and life expectancy is significantly curtailed when used with them. In fact, I only shoot RUGER ONLY loads ONCE in it and then it goes into the 7.5-8 grains Unique rotation.

To me the .44 Mag vs .45 Colt debate has less to do with terminal performance at the high end and more to do with the practical life expectancy of the brass when .45 Colt is pushed hot and hard. That’s the only area I see the Colt giving up any ground to Elmers offspring.

None of which are a problem at 1050... now some loads may require a few more tenths to get to that speed but the 30k contender rounds are far above required speeds and pressures. I haven't seen any documentation stating, nor have I seen 20kish loads for 45c. I'm estimating that it won't take but just the smallest bit above max to get there. Silhouette says 950 out if a 7" barrel at 14k. Out of a 20 16-17k should put me right in there no major pressure required. This is in a modern steel rifle.

 

[Charlie98]

Not rain on your parade but 44 mag is a much more versatile cartridge. A reloader can duplicate any 45 C load and beyond.

Running a heavy bullet at ~1000fps, isn't a problem with any big bore, straight-wall pistol case... .41, .44, or .45. If all the OP needs out of it is that... the .44MAG is overkill.

 

[robin banks]

Not rain on your parade but 44 mag is a much more versatile cartridge. A reloader can duplicate any 45 C load and beyond.

https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloa...x?gtypeid=1&weight=240&shellid=33&bulletid=52

The velocities listed here are the results using a 7.5" barrel. A carbine barrel of 20" will deliver about 300 fps faster velocity. These are max loads so reduce those a bit and you have your 1050 MV.

45 Colt is a pretty neat package though for subsonic. So is 44 Special. Fun to note that 44 Spl loaded with 2400 and 250 gr lead has almost exactly the same MV as 45 Colt.

https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloa...x?gtypeid=1&weight=250&shellid=36&bulletid=67
https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloa...x?gtypeid=1&weight=250&shellid=32&bulletid=47

not that it matters but you can pass the power of the 44 mag with the 45 colt which has a bigger case and a bigger bore

 

[someguy2800]

I'm all about that bullet diameter. I just wish that 300+ grain bullets were more available for the .452" and .430" caliber. Hard to find anything above that. I think a 45 colt would be a really sweet shooter with like a 360-400 grain bullet, and that is where it would pull away from 44 mag in subsonic loading. Unfortunately the only such bullets I've ever found are either very expensive boutique offerings or people resizing 45-70 bullets.

Another thing to consider that may or may not be an issue is that 44 mag works well with a 5/8-24 thread size, but 45 colt typically gets .578 x 28 thread size. There are plenty of suppressors for both but I happened to have a 5/8-24 suppressor already for my 300 blackout, so that kind of shoe horned me into 44 mag.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Find a nice bullet with a sharp shoulder on it so you get a caliber size hole cut through. I like LSWC's for 44 or 45LC for that reason as, if going slow, they are not likely to expand much so I want a clean hole cut.

 

[Charlie98]

Unfortunately the only such bullets I've ever found are either very expensive boutique offerings or people resizing 45-70 bullets.

My usual source for such bullets is Montana Bullet Works... you can get true Keith SWC bullets, with the full-size driving band and a bigger meplat than the generic (typically RCBS-style) commercial cast bullets. If you don't cast, and demand a high performance bullet... they're your Huckleberry. Yes, they are expensive... relatively speaking.

 

[someguy2800]

My usual source for such bullets is Montana Bullet Works... you can get true Keith SWC bullets, with the full-size driving band and a bigger meplat than the generic (typically RCBS-style) commercial cast bullets. If you don't cast, and demand a high performance bullet... they're your Huckleberry. Yes, they are expensive... relatively speaking.

I shoot their 300 grain gas check bullet in my 444 marlin (actually weighs 320gr) and it is fantastic, but they have gone bonkers on their pricing at $250 for 500 bullets or something like that. I’ve been trying to order some more since December but they shut ordering on and off on the website periodically to deal with backlogs and a can’t seam to catch them when they are taking orders. It’s about time for me to just start casting my own.

 

[Obturation]

45 colt is the cartridge others want to grow up to be. Potent at low velocity and will beat 44 magnum if your gun is up for the pressure, it's been run over too many times. The beauty of the big bores is that you don't need velocity unless you're trying to flatten trajectory . I was a 44 convert for a few years and gave up on it when I found a better cartridge for high & low power- not exactly 45 colt but close, 454 casull. That has not much to do with this conversation but it does relate because 454 cases can be cut down for heavy 45 colt loads which extends brass life.

I think a 45 colt would be a really sweet shooter with like a 360-400 grain bullet, and that is where it would pull away from 44 mag in subsonic loading. Unfortunately the only such bullets I've ever found are either very expensive boutique offerings or people resizing 45-70 bullets.

They're available for normal prices, just gotta know where to look

https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=463&category=5&secondary=14&keywords=

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010707860

Those are just a couple , look for bullets intended for 454 or 460mag.

Heavier the better for me, at 1200 fps there's not much on earth that'll survive a well placed hit from that, even at 900 fps, they'll go clear through just about anything fleshy.

That said, I like 45-70 with 405 grain rnfp over a case full of trailboss. That shoots like a pop gun and still gets close to 1000 fps but all you need is another load handy for full power, more then you'll get from any handgun round. A starting trapdoor charge of imr4198 is about like a trailboss load too- works great.

But yes, I fully agree that 45 colt is really hard to beat. My normal 45 colt load is 5 grains of clays under a 250 rnfp . clean, accurate and very easy for anyone to shoot. Even that load will kill just about anything. Big bores are certainly my favorite and of them the 45s are the way to go. I think bullet selection sets them apart from the 44s and the case capacity and larger diameter are just a bonus. I've tried the 44 +p+ rounds some boutique sellers make and I've fired them, if you're specifically buying a gun to shoot those, get a bigger gun, if you just want a few for grizzly defense you better hope it's a ruger or a FA or you may not like what happens.

I'll beat the horse a little more, what the heck. Bullet diameter matters if velocity will be below 2000 fps. Hits count, misses don't and larger diameter increases the likelihood of a hit, it also makes a bigger hole so the juice leaks out faster. Those are the facts.

45 colt is the way.