Is the 9mm such a bad round?

[Doug.38PR]

Personally, I prefer the .38 158 gr LHP as it is heavier and you can get sometimes even better velocity than the 9mm with special loads like Buffalo bore, but is the 9mm really such a bad round with HP bullets? All this bad press about the 9mm says it won't stop someone, it's a horrible round, we need .357 Sig or .40 S&W or 10mm or .45 ACP or S&W 500 .

When my CHL instructor was telling us generally where to shoot someone he said shoot center mass. He strongly recommended against head shots because "courts don't generally like them, they feel they are excessive force." I popped my hand up and ask if it would not be better to shoot in the head, after all what if a chest shot doesn't stop him. He simply said "one shot or double tap center mass from a 9mm will stop someone." And that was the end of the discussion. Later he told me that he had served as a police officer for several years and as a paramedic for even more years than that and had answered calls to a lot of gunfight scenes involving 9mm handguns. He guarunteed that the recipiants of said round still needed medical attention, oxygen masks, blood transfusions if not a trip to the morgue. In short, they weren't up and walking around.

Another retired LEO told me once that all this talk about even lesser rounds like the .32 ACP or the .38 S&W or the .25 just making someone mad at you is largely just bull. As someone who had been shot, he said that getting mad wasn't on the top of his list of things to do, it was getting help.

 

[stevelyn]

At one time the 9mm was marginal for self-defense, but that was due to the bullet more than anything else.

When bullet technology allowed for the manufacture of premium hollowpoint 9mm defense ammo, the 9mm closed the performance gap with other calibers.

As for head shots.......a falure-to-stop or Mozambique drill is two the chest and one to the head. It's taught to cops at the basic level and to everyone else at the better courses. As long as it's a good shoot, I wouldn't worry too much about what the court might think. Think about the TX CCW holder that intervened in a murder at a courthouse. The BG was wearing body armor and the result was he killed the CCW holder inspite of COM hits and went on to kill more. Then there's the LA bank robbery where all the BGs wore body armor and required precise rifle fire to put down. It seems to be more common these days. Besides you're shooting to stop bad behavior. You keep shooting until the behavior stops. If it happens to take a head shot to stop the bad behavior, then so be it. We didn't invite the BGs to do harm to us.

It irritates the hell out of me that CCW/firearms instructors teaching the public how to defend their lives continue to play this dumba$$ "game of play nice with the antis-lets sugar-coat reality" and teach doctrine that may endanger their students' lives in the name of image or perception.

With apologies to Art's Grammaw.

 

[browningguy]

Nothing wrong with 9mm with a good JHP. A 158 gr. 38 spc. going faster than a 9mm 124 gr. load sounds like pretty high pressure to me, why not just call it a .357 mag.

Personally if I was carrying a .38 spc. it would be loaded with something like the 124 gr. Gold Dots.

 

[isp2605]

I've carried a 9mm for 28 yrs. Over 20 yrs of that it was my issued duty rd. I saw and investigated quite a few shootings where the 9mm was used. It's a rd that works and works well.
As far as shooting for the head, that works well on the range. No one is shooting back at you, no stress, plenty of time to acquire a sight picture, and the head is a stationary target that isn't moving. However, once you get out there in the thick of it where you're taking incoming rds, you've got the biggest adrenalin dump in your life, you can't decide to fill your pants or run for the hills, and the subject's head is constantly moving, taking a head shot isn't as easy as the range commandos think it is.
The entire 2 body-1 to the head was thought of to defeat a subject wearing body armor. If you hit the subject twice in the body and no reaction then the thought was the subject might be armored. You would then have fewer options and trying to hit a smaller target that is moving more would be one of the options left. Also, a head shot does not ensure the subject will stop, go down, or be taken out of action. I've seen and investigated shootings where a head shot didn't take the subject out of the threat. A friend of mine on the dept took a 9mm Federal BPLE to the head during a shootout. He continued but was taken out of action not by the head shot but by a rd that entered his hand near his wrist, travelled up his forearm, and exited at his elbow.
For most encounters, it is extremely rare for subjects to wear armor, particularly in situations that non-LEOs would find themselves. The best course of action to stop the threat is to keep dumping rds towards the largest target and which moves less which is COM.

 

[riverdog]

Within the last year I returned to the 9mm in the form of a G19. Today I'll be reliability testing some 147 gr Speer Gold Dots. Good sectional density and a HP too.

 

[robertbank]

If the 9MM round is the round of choice for the RCMP than it is good enough for me.

Take Care

Bob

 

[crunker]

I'd prefer a .357SIG over 9mm, but unfortunately .357SIG doesn't have much ammunition variety.

 

[Doug.38PR]

A 158 gr. 38 spc. going faster than a 9mm 124 gr. load sounds like pretty high pressure to me, why not just call it a .357 mag.

Believe it or not, Buffalo Bore can get it as fast or faster (depending on barrel length) without going .357 Magnum AND staying within +P safety levels

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Anyone who says two 9mm rds to the chest won't stop someone is a moron.(Not wearing a vest of course)

Also, say they were all drugged out on crack or crank or something, once those lungs start filling with blood, I don't think its going to matter how much adrenaline they have pumping.

 

[Marshall]

No.

 

[Desertscout]

There is nothing wrong with the 9mm. It's an easy toshoot, inexpensive, effective round.
I know that the results of just one shooting means nothing but we had a guy shot here by our SO 3 times, COM, with 230 gr. Ranger .45 ACP and he never hit the ground. Still alive today. Our city PD shot a guy about 3 months ago 4 times with a .357 SIG. 3 time COM and one to the head. The head shot STOPPED the guy but one the thoracic cavity shots is the one tha actually killed him.
In contrast, a dope dealer here caught one round of 9mm through his truck window during a little skirmish and didn't live long enough to park his truck

 

[cookekdjr]

Is the 9mm such a bad round? ...
Personally, I prefer the .38 158 gr LHP as it is heavier and you can get sometimes even better velocity than the 9mm with special loads like Buffalo bore, but is the 9mm really such a bad round with HP bullets?

What's great about the 9mm is that there are so many loadings for it. Want 147gr or 158gr bullets that mimic the LSWCHP "FBI load"? You got it. Want 115-127gr bullets that mimic .357 SIG? You got it. You can find all kinds out there.
Where the bad rap comes is the loads that mimic .380
I used to see alot of "caliber failure" from the 9mm when I was a homicide prosecutor in Atlanta. Alot of the losers in gun battles carried 9mm's. The winners carried .40's and .45's.
Then I noticed that sometimes 9mm performed very well, and began to look closer at what loads were used. The bottom line is, 9mm is very load dependant (Unlike .40 or .45, where almost any common commercial ammo will perform well). Choose a good load, and 9mm is very effective. I now carry a G19, and I never question its ability to get the job done (I carry 147gr, usually Hyrda-shocks).
-David

 

[pablo45]

I love the 9mm round. In a +P+ i would put it against any .45 a.c.p. or any of the above mentioned. The 9mm is the cheapest to shoot the best for capacity and a great all around round. I love my glock 19 with some +P+ in there i never feel out gunned by any big bore. 9mm still has my support.

 

[ugaarguy]

9mm is perfectly fine defensive round. Training & Practice matter more. I handload so I can shoot 45 ACP, and .38 Special a whole lot cheaper than I can buy it in the store. I might be able to reload 9mm practice ammo cheaper than what I can buy it for, but barely. Loading 45 ACP, 38 Special, and 45 LC will offset the cost of a reloading press pretty quick. I wouldn't even try to reload 9mm if it was my primary shootng caliber, not worth the cost of a press. That's the beauty of 9mm - plenty of really good used handguns in 9mm on the market at great prices and tons of cheap and widey available practice ammo. If was on a tight gun budget, or I wasn't the gun nut I am who chooses to have a large gun budget, 9mm is what I'd go with. All that cheap practice with a 9mm will matter far more than the difference between it and a say a 45 or 40 S&W with good quality defensive ammo. So, is 9mm so bad? No, it ain't bad at all, it's pretty darn good actually.

 

[Sry0fcr]

I'll agree that 9mm is load dependent. The +P/+P+ loads are rivaling some .357 SIG and .357 Mag loads. I'll take 17+1 of the good stuff.

 

[Ala Dan]

No

The 9m/m isn't such a bad round, in the right loading. If it was, why would
so many police and military's of the world be using it? For me, I've had great
success from this .355 diameter bullet. Besides, just being plain fun to shoot;
it has the potential to be a lethal projectile, provided that shot placement is
paramount. The only weapon I currently own chambered for this round is my
wonderful West German SIG-SAUER P228; perfectly balanced, and very easy
too shoot~!

 

[Gord]

Yes.

The 9mm is a pantywaist Europellet used by effeminate Frenchmen and British schoolchildren before they're ready to graduate to .22 single-shots at age 6. It was originally developed by the Germans to fill the need for a primitive version of airsoft.

Besides having a 95% opponent liquefaction rate on all known living beings elephant-sized and smaller, it has been scientifically proven in several independent studies that firing a .45ACP results in having sex with the prom queen 9.75 times out of 10, with an error margin of 0.25.

It is a little-known fact that the American Revolution was won singlehandedly by a toddler aiming a Colt 1911A1 across the Atlantic Ocean in the general direction of Britain. King George quickly granted the colonists their independence and instructed all citizens of the British Isles to barricade themselves into their basements, fearing the impact of the mighty 230-grain slug.

Why shoot anything but a real man's caliber?

Epilogue:
The State of California immediately introduced legislation proposing a ban on dandelions, sea turtles and fine sand, just because.

 

[albanian]

"I'd prefer a .357SIG over 9mm, but unfortunately .357SIG doesn't have much ammunition variety."

Me too if someone else were buying the ammo. I like the 9mm because I can shot a LOT of it. A case was costing my about $100 before the ammo price spikes of late. For that kind of money, I can shoot twice as much 9mm as .45acp or about 50% more than .40S&W. 50% to 100% more practice HAS to count for something!

All those extra 9mm I have shot must have helped a little. For that reason alone, I think the 9mm is great. Also, there are some very effective self defense loads that are really impressive. The best I have seen were the old Black Talons. They really were good rounds and not all hype. I haven't tried the new Ranger stuff that is supposed to be as good as the Black Talons. I keep the Speer 124gr Gold Dots in my carry gun (Kahr K-9) and house gun (Beretta 92fs).

I think handguns as a group (.38s, 9mm, .40S&W and .45acp) are all about the same. Compared to a rifle or a shotgun, they all preform about the same. It is the nit picking in people that think they see an advantage where there may not be one. I haven't seen any good evidence that shows a 9mm isn't as effective as a .40 or a .45.

Shot placement is more important than minor ballistic advantages. With the 9mm, you get less recoil, less blast, faster follow up shots, more practice, less flinching and and more rounds in your pistol. All of these add up to you being able to hit better (except the last one).

 

[bakert]

The 9MM with today's bullets developed in the last 8 to 10 yrs, is not the wimpish rd described by Chuck Taylor and the good Colonel, Jeff Cooper. Yes it's small but it's got some big teeth nowadays. I carry both a .45 and sometimes a 9MM. I feel about as safe with either. For a lot of people the 9MM easier to shoot that some of the harder recoiling rds. Anyone calling it a pantywaist gun hasn't seen someone shot with it.

 

[Bart Noir]

T. Ninja, you sir (or ma'm as the case may be) have some skills in humorous writing. May your shooting be as good, even airsoft.

isp2605, it's my sincere hope that your friend mostly recovered from those 9mm shots. It is too much to hope for total recovery. The Perp bought the farm, right?

Bart Noir

 

[cyco668]

I'm from the Washington DC/ Maryland area. There are about 1000 murders a year between DC, Baltimore, and the suburbs, and 9mm seems to be the most common BG gun. Ask all those victims if a 9mm has significant stopping/ killing power.
For those of you that think 9's are weak, can i shoot you with one? I promise it'll be a heart, lung or stomach shot! What are you worried about? It's not like it's gonna kill you. (joking of course. It's sarcasm, not a threat) Too bad i don't have a 9, only have a 10mm. My next gun is gonna be an 11- cuz it's 1 louder...

 

[shootr]

Add me to the "no" list. I'll defer to those LEOs and Milpers who have actual experience, but the way I see it is a 9mm is as good or better than a .38 Spl -and .38s were the mainstays of US law enforcement for years.

I do know from experience that shot placement is everything - ie. a good hit with a 9 is better than a miss or bad hit from a .45. Also, it was effective enough that the German Army used it two world wars - and they still use it today. With the loads available for it today, it's effectiveness has never been greater.

JMHO

 

[Lucky 7]

Tactical Ninja is my my hero! The bit about the prom queen...classic!

Who cares, right? Tell ya what, take two in the chest and call me (if you can) in the morning.

L7

 

[isp2605]

isp2605, it's my sincere hope that your friend mostly recovered from those 9mm shots. It is too much to hope for total recovery. The Perp bought the farm, right?

Pretty much recovered. It happened in 1988. He's got a scar on his head and some disability limitations in his hand but it's going to take more than a couple of rds to slow him down.
Just prior to shooting my friend the BG had just killed another agent with his first shot, then fired on my friend, and was turning to fire on some other agents when an agent with a 12 ga slug put him down for the count.

 

[Doug.38PR]

isp2605

Your thoughts on being able to hit the head are exactly what my dad, an ex Marine, said following my question to the CHL instructor (we took the class together). That makes sense.

Glad your friend recovered.

I was talking with a gunsmith inside the loop here in Houston and he was relating stories that he had been told by former LEOs to him. He was once told of a man who was shot by a 1911 .45 inches from his forehead. The bullet didn't go through his head, but "went under the scalp and ran under it over to the back of his head." (not entirely sure how that works) The guy took off running and (if I remember the story right) right to the emergency room.
The gunsmith, in relation to that, recalled a story on Oprah in which this young man tried to commit suicide with a shotgun under his chin. DID NOT kill him but rather blew his jaw and lower face off. The boy was interviewed on Oprah. Was the most disgusting thing he had ever seen. Actually survived a shot to the head with a shotgun and a chunk of his face gone. (I do seem to remember the story vaguely 15-20 years ago). Bottom line of our discussion, it's unbelievable how resiliant the human body is and how strong the human will to survive is.