is the BATFE really like that?

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Shung

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For a week now, I have been reading through that excellent book that "Unintended Consequences" is, and beside the fact that it talks a lot about 2 things I like the most (Flying and Shooting) and thaught me in detail how and why your gun laws were enacted (1934, 1968, 1986 1994) I was quite astonished by something and I'd like your opinion about-

the ATF and Federal Agencies in general, in this book, are really depicted as if they were pure EVIL.. Reading through the book i really got the feeling that it was "us" again "them" , and that the goal of the agencies was to put as many poeple as possible in trouble, possibly in jail, not matter if they were innocent, or guilty (in the intent, which seems logical to me).. Trapping them in any manner that would work..

I already knew the Ruby Ridge and Waco events, but one could think they were single mistakes commited by evil mens, but after going through this book and the real stories in contains, I really get the feeling that something has gone wild, in a more general way...

It's almost like the federal government was trying to fight it's citizens instead of serving them, as it should..

is this an exageration that is brought into the book by the personal opinion of the author, or is this something that you, THR forumers can see and feel everyday ? Do you guys feel that the federal government and agencies are more a threat than a help to you ?

the USA, from my Swiss perspective, always sounded like the country of freedom.. freedom that has a price, and that means that NOTHING is owed to you by anybody, but it also mean that you'd be left alone if you werent breaking the law.. After this book, I feel puzzled.. It seems that the freedom isnt always granted.. Even worse, sometimes, freedom is just trampled for really odd reasons..

I'd really like your opinion about this situation.. I am sorry to be unable to express my feeling and my point of view more clearly, but my english is too poor to do it as I would..

regards,

Patrick
 
I've read Unintended Consequences a few times over. I agree that it's an excellent book, and much of the story it tells is lifted directly from history. But it is still historical fiction.

As for the portrayal of the ATF, like any other agency, there are good and evil people working for them. Overall, the way the ATF operates is anomalous in that they do not adjust their enforcement of regulations to conform with court rulings (I'm reminded of the Thompson/Center ruling in regards to attaching a stock and barrel to a pistol, then later removing it, with regards to the firearm's classification as a short barreled rifle). Their interpretations of gun laws can also be very fickle, and they have been known to change their minds on many issues, making what was once deemed legal, illegal (Akins Accelerator, anyone?).

Some of this could be attributed to the vague or odd wording of statutes themselves, but then think about this: After the '68 GCA, when the FFL system was implemented, many gun enthusiasts and collectors got 01 FFLs so they could continue to purchase firearms across state lines, through the mail, etc, without impediment. The ATF later cracked down on this because they didn't want anyone except bona fide businesses to have 01 FFLs. Essentially, the FFL system provided for a way for people to continue their hobbies uninhibited, but the ATF stopped these innocent folks from doing so.

So yes, in some ways, I'd say the ATF is very evil. If not by intent, definitely in practice. Of course, in my opinion, the very existence of the ATF is evil and unnecessary.
 
yeah

As for the portrayal of the ATF, like any other agency, there are good and evil people working for them. Overall, the way the ATF operates is anomalous in that they do not adjust their enforcement of regulations to conform with court rulings (I'm reminded of the Thompson/Center ruling in regards to attacking a stock and barrel to a pistol, then later removing it, with regards to the firearm's classification as a short barreled rifle). Their interpretations of gun laws can also be very fickle, and they have been known to change their minds on many issues, making what was once deemed legal, illegal (Akins Accelerator, anyone?).
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Yeah they are funny like that. Look around for letters that people have written to them with questions. I've seen where the ATF cites court cases, and says they "do not agree" with the outcome, and that they will still support prosecution. :banghead:
 
Their interpretations of gun laws can also be very fickle, and they have been known to change their minds on many issues, making what was once deemed legal, illegal (Akins Accelerator, anyone?).
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This is the very heart of the problem; we shouldn’t have bureaucrats dictating our constitutional rights.
 
Organizations have cultures. That of the BATFE has been well documented over a long period as being heavily bound up with corruption and race and sex discrimination.

Any agency of the US government which has been documented to both organize and put on racially segregated social functions, and in whose offices it was considered acceptable to display [and most definitely NOT for "historical purposes"] "hunting licenses" for a particular race of people IS "like that".

Of course this could all be "ultra-rightwing militia propaganda"... from the mouths of Joseph Biden (Vice President of the United States of America), Ron Ruben (former Treasury Secretary of the United States of America) and Ron Noble (former Undersecretary for Enforcement of the Department of the Treasury of the United States of America)....
 
When discussing any Government agency, you're really discussing power. If you look at the history of power, one notices several things:
1) Power begins by serving some human need.
e.g.: Fire Departments to fight fires.
2) Power Consolidates. Power always seek to expand it's domain.
e.g.: Fire Inspections, fire codes, bigger budgets, better toys, more firefighters.
3) Power Corrupts.
e.g.: Kickbacks for 'passing' inspections, 'Failed' inspections to those who won't pay
to play, packing departments w/ cronies, promotion of the most obsequious.
4) Power Congeals. Once power is obtained, agencies will fight to the death to keep it.
Power is never almost never given up without a struggle.

Consider this: When George Washington became president, he commanded the Army, Navy & Marines. The greatest political influence (read: giveaways/rewards) he had was that he could give jobs at the US Post Office to his friends/supporters.

Here's an incomplete list of US Federal Agencies in the present Executive Branch that the President has control/influence over:

Executive Departments

* Department of Agriculture (USDA)
* Department of Commerce (DOC)
* Department of Defense (DOD)
* Department of Education (ED)
* Department of Energy (DOE)
* Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)
* Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
* Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD)
* Department of Justice (DOJ)
* Department of Labor (DOL)
* Department of State (DOS)
* Department of the Interior (DOI)
* Department of the Treasury
* Department of Transportation (DOT)
* Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

Let's expand just one of these Departments into it's sub-agencies:
Department of Justice (DOJ)
* Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
* Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS)
* Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)
* Executive Office for Immigration Review
* Executive Office for U.S. Attorneys
* Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
* Federal Bureau of Prisons
* Foreign Claims Settlement Commission
* National Drug Intelligence Center
* Office of Justice Programs (Juvenile Justice, Victims of Crime and more)
* Office of the Pardon Attorney
* U.S. Marshals Service
* U.S. National Central Bureau of Interpol
* U.S. Parole Commission
* U.S. Trustee Program

Given what we know about power, one can see how this process, left unchecked, can run amok. Many of these agencies are in need of serious checks & reform. It's not 'evil' it's human nature & the nature of power. Agencies can be reformed/restored to their original need-serving purpose and it always takes vigilance and a struggle.

I'll leave you with a quote from Abraham Lincoln: "Any man can withstand adversity, if you really want to test a man's character, give him power."
 
You're gonna get a lot of answers, depending upon what the local experience with ATFE guys is.

It's not just ATFE either. Ruby Ridge and Waco involved questionable activities by other LEO agencies.

There's good and bad everywhere.
 
I think the ATF is like any group, some good and some bad with the leadership tending to lean towards the bad.

The ATF is a law enforcement agency and agents are sworn to enforce the laws regardless of what they think about said laws. The leadership comes under pressure from Congress and as with any government agency there is the pressure from the news media. This can cause them to do things that appear heavy handed or ill-conceived.

My experience with the ATF is limited to three inspections when I had an FFL. Each time a single agent came to my home (also the license address) and inspected my book. They were all courteous and professional. All explained what they were doing and why. All complimented my meticulous record keeping and made helpful suggestions. I have heard horror stories involving ATF inspections and while I don't doubt it could happen that was not my experience.
 
There was the ATF ruling that a shoestring was a machinegun
There was the ATF agent who stomped on the kitten
ATF raid where a man's home was raided, his gun safe cut open, and his home was left open and unguarded with a note the read "nothing taken. ATF"
There was the "Good ole boys roundup" where agents could purchase "N_gg_r hunting licenses"

Now there are just a few bad agents, I am sure, but why don't the good ones turn in the bad?
 
The ATF is a law enforcement agency and agents are sworn to enforce the laws regardless of what they think about said laws.
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The problem with the BATFE is not them enforcing dubious laws. It's with a pattern of its employees and managers acting as though they THEMSELVES are not subject to any sort of law. Things like:

Institutional Racial Discrimination and Harassment
Institutional Sex Discrimination and Harassment
Use of Agency Resources to Engage in a Pattern of Acts of Racial Hatred
Perjury as Official Policy, and Training Implemented to that End
Withholding of Exculpatory Evidence in Criminal Trials
Corruption, Including Illegal No-bid Contracts

That pattern of behavior over that length of time is so over the top that it's never been a matter of how established law was enforced by the agency. It's repeated examples of CONTEMPT for the law, which in any other Federal Agency would end careers and lead to criminal prosecutions.

Even if one were to stipulate that the BATFE served some beneficial purpose, the totality of the record calls into question the fundamental ability of the agency to fulfill that purpose while obeying the requirements of the United States Constitution and Federal law on a host of matters.
 
Now there are just a few bad agents, I am sure, but why don't the good ones turn in the bad?
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More importantly, it's some VERY bad SUPERVISORS and MANAGERS. Recall that it was a serving BATF SUPERVISOR who organized the "Good Old Boys Roundup" on agency time, using agency resources and who sent out the invitations ON AGENCY LETTERHEAD.

Any Federal agency whose SUPERVISORS feel completely at ease to send out invitations to a RACIALLY SEGREGATED social function at which racist material of the sort typically sold by White supremacist organizations was trafficked, has problems MUCH larger than a few "rogue agents". There exists in such an agency, racial attitudes indistinguishable from those of the "violent racist groups" which it purports to be combating. Indeed, that agency indirectly funds those same groups by allowing their paraphernalia to be trafficked at a series of agency sponsored RACIALLY SEGREGATED social events.
 
Organizations have cultures. That of the BATFE has been well documented over a long period as being heavily bound up with corruption and race and sex discrimination.

Any agency of the US government which has been documented to both organize and put on racially segregated social functions, and in whose offices it was considered acceptable to display [and most definitely NOT for "historical purposes"] "hunting licenses" for a particular race of people IS "like that".
Click to expand...

Which is certainly professionally inappropriate but is not really important unless you work for them.
What is most important is how they perform their duties.

The context of those racist things is unknown to me. Was it an inside joke after wide scale undercover operations targeting racist groups?
After all a significant percentage of their undercover operations seem to target white racist groups.
Would someone telling a story to bad mouth a disliked agency even care to include the context?
They certainly show no racial preference in conducting prosecutions.


They have done a lot of bad things as an agency, and they have a significant amount of discretion in creating and enforcing gun laws.
Most gun laws are not even the laws themselves, but rather ATF rules. They will always cite the statute however if anyone questions one of their rules as if the rule they came up with is written within that statute. They however can change their interpretation of the statutes at any time to create new rules, or remove old rules.

They even go above and beyond simply using their extraordinary amount of legal discretion and openly defy Supreme Court rulings.
They practice on how to lie in court, while charging anyone else with a federal crime who lies.

One more thing that should be considered is the typical individual such a profession appeals to. A profession that in most instances is anti-gun and revolves around enforcing the latest firearm crackdown implemented.
There is certainly good and bad within the agency, but the political views, especially concerning the RKBA of someone choosing to do that for a living probably follow a pattern.
 
Which is certainly professionally inappropriate but is not really important unless you work for them.
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I disagree.

If an agency considers it appropriate to have displayed in its offices "hunting licenses" for an entire race of people, is it reasonable for persons of that race to expect impartial justice FROM that agency? In a word, "no".
 
Well, same for me. I am not good enough in english to say that it is a good book in style or writing, but it gives a very good idea of how and when your most crazy gun laws were enacted.. and still it's hard to believe that they were passed without more resistance..

I mean.. How could you possibly arrest and put someone with no criminal intent in jail for a wooden stock 3/8" shorter than what it should be on a shotgun, when you have no kind of regulation on pistol regarding size..

And that is only an example out many more..

by the way, is there any record of any big operation of the BATFE (or ATF) making usefull arrests, unlike arresting people for unlawfull gun's (too short, stocks on pistols etc, but who had no criminal intent at all)
 
I thought their bulk purchase of an "always think forfeiture" engraved tool to be carried in the field was an especially interesting choice.

The more you have to take, the more they will find you interesting. Even the most minor of violations being used to confiscate property and assets.


(Of course if you don't have anything you probably cannot afford a decent legal defense, which could also make a prosecution of you appealing.)



This is not that much different than the philosophy of many narcotic departments and agencies, but coming from an agency which primarily deals with enforcing guns laws rather than drug laws, it is worth noting.
 
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People come and people go; some are good, some are bad. But they all work for a government agency with the stated purpose of enforcing laws that are unpopular, frequently unconstitutional, and generally repressive. The unstated purpose of any government agency is to increase its own funding, employment, and power; which leads to further abuse.
 
The unstated purpose of any government agency is to increase its own funding, employment, and power; which leads to further abuse.
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And how do you increase the funding, number of employees, and the power of an agency tasked primarily with enforcing gun laws?

By demonstrating there is a constant and increasing financial 'need' based on a 'gun threat'.
While also highlighting prosecutions and demonstrating 'success' in busting an increasing number of people when funding is increased or allocated.


Of course without the ATF there would just be a special anti-firearm branch of the FBI formed to accomplish the same thing.
 
as I said NCpatrolAR, my english is far too bad to appreicate this book from the style and writing perspective.. What interested me was the stories and facts in explained.. I'm pretty sure than 75% of americans have NO idea of how and when their gunlaws were passed, and why, and this kind of book good give them this knowledge..

Now, when I was asking if BATFE was incline to persecute people who were obiously no criminals in the intent, I didnt mean that the men at the end of the chain were evil (not the agents themselves) but more questionning about the "system" and the goals of this kind of agency..

Somebody earlier stated that the agencies are seeking numbers to justify their existence... well, I found it particualary interesting in the book, how the explained that after the prohibition lots of agents from these agencies would have been out of work not having any more alcohol laws to enforce... thus they passed the 1934 laws, making people and objects "illegal" from a day to another, and so creating new "work" for those unoccupied people...

Doesnt this sound crazy for you ?
 
Now, when I was asking if BATFE was incline to persecute people who were obiously no criminals in the intent, I didnt mean that the men at the end of the chain were evil (not the agents themselves) but more questionning about the "system" and the goals of this kind of agency.
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The BATFE has horrendous legal and ethical problems from top to bottom, from a former director who grossly wasted scarce funds on office decor, to agents at the bottom who have done things like physically abuse pregnant women.

BATFE traditionally has had the lowest qualifications for Federal LEOs and the worst supervision.

As I said, the BATFE is the way that it is (and always has been) because the organizational culture says that's how it SHOULD be. Like minded individuals hire and promote like minded individuals who in turn hire and promote like minded individuals. As they say, "the fish rots from the head down."
 
Anyone wanting to know about U.S. gun laws would do better to google the information rather than suffering through that 900 page tome. It is a horrid book with a silly plot. However, Timothy McVeigh does reccomend it highly.
 
Boo hoo.

Hitler liked art. I guess the Louvre is stupid.

UC is a pretty good book. Some of the plot elements are corny or out of place, but the history and viewpoints it contains are fantastic.
 
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