Is the Browning High-Power a 1911?

[Hawk]

Well, having participated in the real 1911 thread, I'd have to guess that the BHP isn't a 1911.

In that other thread, it was stated at the outset that the SW1911 wasn't a 1911 because it had a bambi-nation of an external extractor. My STI VIP wasn't a 1911 for more reasons than I can readily list but included double stack magazines and polymer in their number.

But both the SW1911 and the STI are closer to a real 1911 than the BHP. Well, the STI might be pushing it but a bunch of 1911 parts still work in it and that can't be said for my BHP.

 

[USMCDK]

Well guys I have to confess I am the friend and you are right I don't whole heck of alot about a lot of guns. That is why I am on this website. to learn. I admit I am wrong about the BHP. I however did think it was a 1911 because of the link that I was on not to mention the title of the picture was misleading.

Forgive my ignorance guys. Rexster thank you for not blowing up my spot and calling me out here. I have to admit though it does look like a 1911 to me :banghead:

 

[Rexster]

No harm, no foul; both the 1911 and BHP are large-frame single-action Browning-style autoloading pistols. The 1911 had design elements specified by the U.S. Army; the BHP was free of those specifications during its design process, and as indicated, the BHP design was finalized by Mr. Saive. Both are truly great pistols.

 

[Moonclip]

Heck some guns look even more like a 1911 pattern and are not 1911's. Star PD and BM and American Arms IIRC used to make a DA .22lr that looked like one. The Ballester Molina is also vaguely 1911ish.

A lot of the guns mentioned including the BHP have no grip safety and different triggers and sometimes mag safeties as well.

Similar in some ways? Yes.

Same? No way.

 

[RNB65]

Interesting... So there's at least 4 people on this board who can't tell an orange from a tangerine.

 

[1911Tuner]

Interesting... So there's at least 4 people on this board who can't tell an orange from a tangerine.

Oh...No problem tellin' oranges from tangerines. Just recognizing that they both have similar citrus fruit under the skins.

 

[S&Wfan]

John Browning's 1911 debuted in . . . ummm . . . 1911.

John Browning's P-35 "High Power" debuted in . . . ummm . . . 1935.

No way these two guns are that similar.

No way!

T.

 

[1911Tuner]

No way these two guns are that similar.

Look closely. Even a Glock is more similar than you'd suspect from outward appearances.

 

[USMCDK]

If I recall the 1911 was originally made in 1906 but the Military had specifications that they wanted added to the weapon and so by 1911, when it was excepted by the military, it became known as the 1911 (1911A1 to be exact)

I could be wrong but I remember talking to a 1911 purist here at Sig Sauer and that is what he told me, along with many of you here on this website.

 

[steelyblue]

Wow, there are such thing as gun geeks

(As a Scientist I have the right to use that word)

 

[cdrt]

If I recall the 1911 was originally made in 1906 but the Military had specifications that they wanted added to the weapon and so by 1911, when it was excepted by the military, it became known as the 1911 (1911A1 to be exact)

The Colt Govt Model 1911 was produced basically from 1911 until 1925 (1912 according to the Bluebook), when changes were made to the pistol. It then became the 1911A1. The 1911A1 has a longer grip safety, arched mainspring housing instead of flat, shorter trigger, relief cuts on sides of the frame for finger clearance and a front sight blade with sloped ramp face and square notch rear sight. The Army requested these improvements. So a 1911 and a 1911A1 are not exactly the same thing.

 

[1911Tuner]

If I recall the 1911 was originally made in 1906 but the Military had specifications that they wanted added to the weapon and so by 1911, when it was excepted by the military, it became known as the 1911

The pistol that we know today truly began in 1909, though its roots go back to 1903, and the notion that John Browning locked himself away and emerged 2 years later with the 1911 is a misconception.

Browning didn't have a free hand and he didn't create the 1911 with divine inspiration. He gave the paying customer...basically a committee... what was requested. He did the same with the Hi-Power. If the customer had requested a grip safety on the P35, you can bet that it would be wearing one today. If the committee had requested that the 1911 be a doublestack 9mm...that's what Browning would have delivered.

Browning also didn't do it alone. He had a team of Colt's top engineeers and designers at his disposal...and the same applies to the Hi-Power.

There are many unseen and unsung hands in both pistols, but the basic design present in both...tilt barrel, locked breech, recoil operated, single-action, etc. is all Browning...but even the 1911 is known as "Colt-Browning" because Colt's team had a lot of input on the final design.

 

[hankdatank1362]

1911... Hi-power... different pistols, but both obviously JMB influenced designs.

1911... responsible for just about every single pistol out there today (locked-breech short-recoil). Of course, there are a few oddballs; fixed barrel P7s, Blowback hi-points, locking block Beretta 92s, gas operated desert eagles, etc...

 

[BHPshooter]

Nope, not the same. Almost everything is about them is different. They are related though, and it's fairly easy to see the genealogy. The ergonomics and feel are almost identical, and that, IMO, is the most important trait.

John Browning's 1911 debuted in . . . ummm . . . 1911.

John Browning's P-35 "High Power" debuted in . . . ummm . . . 1935.

Actually, that's not true. Those are the dates that the pistols were first adopted by a country's military. The 1911 was developed in concert with the US military, who wanted a thumb safety, which the 1910 lacked. When that was added, it was adopted as the 1911. I don't think production models were ever delivered until 1912.

On the other hand, the Hi Power was actually around for a few years [according to R. Blake Stevens' book] before the Belgian military adopted it, permanently naming it the P-35.

They're both awesome pistols. That's what really matters.
Wes

 

[hksw]

Well, having cleared up the reasoning behind the OP's friend in thinking the HP was a 1911, what about the folks who answered with 'BHP is a 1911.' There are four of them as I write this. What is their reasoning behind why they think the HP is a 1911?

 

[1911Tuner]

The HP is NOT a 1911. They have the same roots, and the basic function is the same...but it's like comparing a 350 Chevrolet engine in a '98 Chevy station wagon with a 350 in an 1970 Camaro or Corvette. The same base engine...but much different in the execution.

 

[RNB65]

What is their reasoning behind why they think the HP is a 1911?

Drinking and 'net surfing are a bad mix.
-

 

[BHPshooter]

it's like comparing a 350 Chevrolet engine in a '98 Chevy station wagon with a 350 in an 1970 Camaro or Corvette. The same base engine...but much different in the execution.

Well put.

Wes

 

[SouthpawShootr]

Your friend is uneducated. Print up some history of both and present the evidence. The only things these two designs have in common are single action and John Browning worked on both.

 

[10-Ring]

WOW Check out the poll results -- overh whelming answer!
...and I do concur

 

[ezypikns]

From now on I'm calling my S&W Model 10 a 1911 too.

And I'm calling my Model 36 "Bob".

 

[Hoffy]

John Moses Browning called down from heaven:
A BHP is no 1911.
John gave no hint on what his choice would be...
But both are great pistols, we all can agree.

 

[chrismc410]

They are two different designs, even though the same man designed them. They are both short recoil, tilting barrel lock up, single action, semi automatic pistols and that is where the simularities end.

The differences:

1911: a barrel with a swinging link to lock/unlock the breech

Hi Power: a cam under the barrel locks/unlocks the breech

1911: a removable barrel bushing

Hi Power: Not removable

1911: grip safety and thumb safety

Hi Power: Magazine safety and thumb safety

1911: single stack magazine

Hi Power: double stack, staggered magazine

1911: .45 ACP or 11.43x23mm for those 1911s designated in metric (like my Sistema) in the original loading that is, even though other calibers can be had with 1911s

Hi Power: 9mm Luger/Parabellum (original loading)even though .40 and .357 SIG can be had(with a barrel change for those who have .40Hi Powers)

Are both good pistols? Yes, without question, one is a 97 year old design, the other is a 73 year old design, both are still made, both have their own set of followers, the edge more to 1911 users. Bottom line, can't go wrong with anything John Browning designed or even partially.