Correlation does not equal causation.I think Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand provide models that demonstrate how fewer guns mean fewer dead.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Guns cannot be uninvented, they will always exist in society until they become obsolete. Make no mistake, even if there is a complete and effective ban on civilian ownership of firearms, the governments of the world will still arm their agents, be they soldiers, police, spies, etc.
However, there is evidence that some of these countries with strict gun laws have been experiencing a significant increas in violent crime, while such has been decreasing in the United States.citizenzen said:...I think Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand provide models that demonstrate how fewer guns mean fewer dead....
But it does indicate a relationship that may exist.
They are evidence of no such thing. By that logic, pirates prevent global warming.And the countries I listed are evidence that greatly reducing the number of guns in circulation would reduce the number of civilian death and injury
The key word here is "may." Not "does".
However, there is evidence that some of these countries with strict gun laws have been experiencing a significant increas in violent crime, while such has been decreasing in the United States.
The concept that any government can make any aspect of life 'safe for everyone' by legislation is ludicrous.
Pretty much a restatement of my original article, eh.They make it easier for potential victims to kill the person attempting to murder them.
They make it easier for a motley collection of citizens to kill an invading horde.
Good.
It would seem to make sense, then, for them to be standard equipment for everyone. Hell, forks are standard equipment. Virtually everyone has several. Even the fork abusers.
I understand that there will always be people who abuse their forks. They have the freedom to fail. It is not for others to force them to eat right, nor to eat less. That's what freedom is about. You're free to get it right, and free to get it wrong.
We don't do "prior restraint."
That's not freedom.
We prosecute and penalize actual acts, not the imaginings of the worried.
And when we do penalize the imaginings of the worried, we perpetrate gross injustice.
citizenzen said:Guns are like forks in that they are a utensil too ... a killing utensil ... they make it easier for humans to kill one another.
I hope that helps to explain it more clearly.
[snip]
Because, let us not pretend otherwise, guns are lethal force. They are the equalizer. They are lethal force in the hands of people who are otherwise "criminals' prey and the tyrants' playthings."
I think Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand provide models that demonstrate how fewer guns mean fewer dead.
Guns?
Not nearly as large a part as peer pressure, two known parents, the related parental guidance, and human mentality sadly missing in some segments of the U.S. population.
When I grew up 60+ years ago, disagreements between teens were settled in a glaring, posturing & shoving match at the least, or a fist fight and a bloody nose at most.
Today, somebody disses somebody's perceived manliness, girlfriend/baby momma of the moment, or steps on someones Nike shoes, and the Glocks come out to Kill'm All!
No concern, no conscience, no right from wrong, and no remorse.
Not even for killing little babys and old grandmothers setting on the porch up the street.
That lack of respect for human life, or fellow man, is not going to be cured until the underlaying causes are cured.
And at this point in time, in the current have & have not, over-populated, no chance anyway, drug culture inner-city world?
I don't see that ever happening in our lifetime.
It's so far out of control now there will be no turning it back.
rc
The difference is that there is additional evidence suggesting that availability of guns to, and in the hands of, private citizens does prevent/reduce crime.citizenzen said:...Then you come along and try to convince me that the lack of guns causes a rise in crime.
It seems members here want to deny the connection when it works against their argument, while being all too eager to make the connection when it works for it....
I have to tell you guys this "blocking people mode" thing is great, now I can concentrate on my fellow members who come here to speak of guns, not stir up trouble, try it I no longer see anything this citizen guy posts.
And I also should say I think you're misunderstanding that quote...perhaps it was misquoted to you. Forks make it easier to eat than without them, but they don't cause anything. "Cause" being the operative word. Guns don't "cause," they, like forks are only a tool. People would still kill sans guns and we would still eat without forks.
This paper also describes higher and rising crime rates in Europe compared with the United States.
The Crime Victimization Survey conducted by the University of Leiden in The Netherlands shows overall violent crime rates in the United States well below those of some of the European countries with the stricter gun laws you favor.
Nor did I claim it or the University of Leiden study did. What both show is the crime rates are rising in gun restricted Europe while an increasing number of guns in private hands doesn't correlate to an increasing crime rate in the U. S.citizenzen said:Frank Ettin,
This paper also describes higher and rising crime rates in Europe compared with the United States.
That paper attributes the fall in crime in the U.S. to the increase in prison population (highest in the world, BTW), the legalization of abortion, the increase in the number of police forces, and the vanishing of the crack epidemic of the 1980s.
The paper says nothing about guns playing a role.
Just a thought, but we kill some 40K annually with motor vehicles, yet no one seems in a snit to get rid of them ! >MW
Nor did I claim it or the University of Leiden study did. What both show is the crime rates are rising in gun restricted Europe while an increasing number of guns in private hands doesn't correlate to an increasing crime rate in the U.S.
My life certainly would have changed.I see this as a matter of utility and value. Think about how you, your community, state and nation depend on motor vehicles. They are a vital daily component of our lives. Our economy, our world would be quite different without them.
And for all the trillions of miles driven every year we accept ~40,000 deaths.
Guns, most of which sit for days, months or years locked (hopefully) away, are the cause of death for ~30,000.
To me it's not even close how these two compare. Lose every motor vehicle and our world stops. Lose every gun, and what changes?