Is the damage to society from the misuse of guns worth the freedom to have guns?

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JackBurtonJr

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I wrote this essay a few years back and thought I'd share it with you all. It is a bit long, but still quite readable. I would enjoy getting feedback on it.

Is the damage to society from the misuse of guns worth the freedom to have guns?

THE QUESTION

Are we as a country willing to accept the several hundred thousand situations and incidents year year when those who mis-use an otherwise legal substance create problems and harm innocents? Or do we demand that freedom for all be curtailed so that the innocents be spared?

A SIMILAR PROBLEM

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention:

Every day, almost 30 people in the United States die in motor vehicle crashes that involve an alcohol-impaired driver. This amounts to one death every 48 minutes."

There are 147 million self-reported episodes of alcohol-impaired driving among U.S. adults each year.

The annual cost of alcohol-related crashes totals more than $51 billion.

We can perhaps put a dollar figure on alcohol abuse, but that doesn't even begin to put a face on the shattered and lost lives from drunk drivers, the beaten and abused wives, the children who grow up under intolerable and cruel conditions, the jobs lost, the companies gone bankrupt, and the hazards it creates for everyone else who is innocent. Do those people who demand that all alcohol either be strictly controlled or banned all together have the right of it?

Is the damage to society from the misuse of alcohol worth the freedom for you and me to have a glass of wine with dinner, a cocktail at a party, or a bottle of beer after mowing the lawn?

Can society tolerate retail stores where any adult can walk in and buy as much liquor as he wants with no questions asked? Where parties are held where there is no limit on the amount and type of alcohol served? Where a keg of beer that can get many people drunk is as freely available as a bottle of beer?

PROHIBITION AND BEYOND

We do know that the people of the United States decided that question decades ago.

Remember Prohibition? Those who pushed the 18th Amendment in the early part of last century had dreams of utopia. Just give the government tight control over demon rum, or even get rid of it all together, and the world will be a better, safer place. No individual needed to drink alcoholic beverages. There was far too much damage to society from that freedom.

It didn't work out as those who had good intentions had planned. Crime skyrocketed and vicious, law-breaking gangs who ran booze to the people who wanted it become entrenched in society to this day. People found a way to drink, and ruined their health from cheap, poisoned whiskey. Innocent wives and children still suffered.

So, what happened? The American people, knowing full well that millions of their neighbors would misuse alcohol, that families would be destroyed, children abused, jobs lost, lives lost, tens of thousands of more car wrecks, and more homeless roaming the streets, still passed the 21st Amendment giving back to Americans the freedom to choose what they would do.

The people spoke. They considered the "collateral damage" well worth the price of freedom.

It's the same with guns.

FREEDOM VS. THE NANNY STATE

There are laws against the misuse of guns. There are laws against the "wrong" people having guns. But as long as we are a free society a very small percentage of the firearms will wind up in the hands of those who find a way to hurt themselves and others with guns.

My paternal grandfather committed suicide with his hunting shotgun. My maternal grandfather died an agonizing death a year after being negligently shot by his son, my uncle. I never had the opportunity to know either grandfather. Another uncle was killed at age three by a “war trophy gun” shot negligently by the family member who brought it home. My brother-in-law attempted to shoot and kill my sister, and failing that, committed suicide with his gun while my sister was in a phone conversation with him. My 20-year-old nephew accidently shot and killed himself at a drunken party with his friends, leaving behind a pregnant girlfriend. In my teens, I was robbed at gun point so many times at the retail store where I worked that I became best friends with the mugshot books at the police department.

I’ve never once had a desire to blame the gun instead of the person behind the trigger.

Yet -- the very same as we tolerate alcohol in our society with all the damage done to our communities by those who abuse the freedom to drink -- we've made the decision to tolerate the freedom to have firearms.

And I am the son of an alcoholic -- I have very intimate first-hand knowledge of just what harm comes to a family, and to individuals from the freedom to buy and consume alcohol. But I've never called for it to be prohibited. There was never a bottle invented that picked itself up and poured it down my dad's throat. Or my brother's throat. Or my other brother's throat. You think they would have learned better from the bad example Dad set. But society gave them that freedom to make bad choices that sometimes hurt themselves and others. Even to the point where my oldest brother lost his life in a car accident while drunk and my next oldest brother died from alcohol-related medical problems.

There is also not a gun that has picked itself up and put itself in the hands of someone who is then forced to misuse it. People use their freedom to make bad choices with firearms and sometimes innocent people are hurt.

I'd rather have the freedom of choice than to live in an obsessive nanny state that desires to control the actions and essential freedom of others.

Freedom is freedom. It is not to be balanced against the evils that people do either purposefully or willfully. There is no tipping point, no level of unacceptable behavior by those who choose to live outside society's rules that counterbalance the concept of freedom. Once we begin to quantify freedom and parcel it out in part based upon some kind of social formula where the most fearful, the social deviants, the least apt among us have controlling interest in what we are allowed to do or not do then it is far from freedom and becomes instead merely privilege.

As Charles C. Cooke states, "Does a preference for human liberty in an imperfect world yield unfortunate, even tragic outcomes from time to time? Indeed so. Should we give that preference up in consequence? Absolutely not."

If you're going to fall back to the argument that firearms are different because they only exist to kill people, then you're also going to have to back the argument that alcohol is just as different as it only exists to get people drunk. Neither argument is going to impress the hundreds of millions of gun owners who do no harm to anyone with their firearms, and the equal number of social drinkers who never get drunk and hurt others.

A SPECIAL REQUEST...

If you think it is helpful, please feel free to re-post it at any opportunity that you think may help people understand this important subject.

Thank you very much...
 
Liberty is dangerous.

Pretty much every freedom in the 1st Amendment risks offense, disorder, social friction.

The 2nd is no different.

We, the People, accept hundreds of risks every day. We rely on electronic communication that is at risk from nearly every direction. We operate motor vehicles on public roadways presuming to an "average" of care and competency. We trust that our public utilities, water, gas, electric, sewer are all safe and competently operated.
 
A easy answer to this human behavior it has not changed in 3000 years mortals still murder rape steal start wars imprison those who speak against certain ideologies embezzle money lust for power and in general if they are powerful enough do whatever they want so what has changed NOTHING today mortals are just better at doing it.
 
I’m not sure of the actual numbers of gun deaths vs deaths by despots globally throughout history in the big scheme of things.

Im betting we are not even close. Until gun deaths exceed that number I say it’s worth it.

On that issue I find it absolutely fascinating that one political party has been saying our democracy is in imminent peril at every chance they’ve had over the past 4 years and we’re just one election away from total tyranny.

Yet they beat the anti gun drum incessantly. Makes no sense to me. Going back to my beer now and watching the Alpen Glow start from the front porch.
 
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The world is not, never has been, and will never be a safe place.
Circumstances notwithstanding, everything that is born eventually dies.
Absolute power corrupts (more evil has been done in the name of God and government than all other reasons combined).
Prohibition and a badly-failed seven decade war on drugs have proven that legislation alone won’t solve anything, people will do whatever they want anyway.
If those in charge ever quit using crime as a political tool, and actually address the cause of crime itself (criminals), that problem will be drastically reduced.
If the portion of those in government who favor gun control ever wake up and realize that an armed populace (something most of the rest of the world does not have) is one of the most important assets this nation has, and stands behind it with support and training, I feel large percentage of gun-related “incidents” will go away.
Lastly, there are many, many things in this level of existence that can cause loss-of-life…stay alert, stay aware, look for problems, don’t just react !
 
I would have thought the National Firearms Act of 1934 established the fact that the question is not "All types of guns or no guns all?" but "Are some types of guns not worth their cost to society?" The answer in 1934 was "Yes", and the sky has not subsequently fallen. Incidentally, that was just one year after the Repeal of Prohibition. It appears people were thinking pretty clearly at the time.

I thank MrJackBurtonJr for all the work he has put into answering a question that is not on the table. I will not be responding to claims that it is on the table, because there is no way to refute a suffiiciently elaborate fantasy, or to deal with the decisions made well after we have all passed on.
 
I agree, and support the examples, no bottle of whiskey ever poured itself, no firearm ever discharged itself. This is where I’ll take some flak, though- I think the minimum age to buy an AR-15 should be 30.
 
starnbar:
The first known murder victims in what we call Britain died about 6,000 years ago.

In what was a very rushed burial (tribal warfare?) for the family of four, they excavated the father and mother (in their late 20's), while both murdered children , a boy and girl, were about 10-12 iirc.

I can't remember which of my books describe it, but it is their first Cold Case. The father's skeleton still had an arrowhead lodged in the ribs.
 
Well said by the OP not sure why Monac thought it necessary to use this thread to defend the NFA

What the OP is saying, and a number of others in this thread as well, is that inaminate objects do nothing by themselves. So what? No one is saying that they do. What the issue is today is what some inanimate objects enable people to do. In 1934, it was felt that some firearms enabled people with ill intent (i.e. criminals) to kill too easily and indiscriminately. Legal action was taken at that time. We are facing the same issue today, and with many more concrete examples of the cost of the firearms in question. No one in this thread is talking that; no one is comparing the benefits with the costs.

It was a comparison of the high costs of Prohibition with its scant benefits that led to its repeal. The same is true now of the slow progress toward the legalization of marijuana, and perhaps other "recreational drugs" in the future. These things need to be considered and decided on the basis of facts, not rhetoric.

Saying "guns don't kill by themselves" does not adress anything. That is an example of the straw man fallacy, which is to refute an argument that is not being made. That is what I suggest the OP has done. Doing so sounds good but completely avoids the real issues involved.
 
Yes, it is. Just as we haven’t banned cars for their misuse, knives, for their misuse, or news media for their misuse.
 
What the OP is saying, and a number of others in this thread as well, is that inaminate objects do nothing by themselves. So what? No one is saying that they do. What the issue is today is what some inanimate objects enable people to do. In 1934, it was felt that some firearms enabled people with ill intent (i.e. criminals) to kill too easily and indiscriminately. Legal action was taken at that time. We are facing the same issue today, and with many more concrete examples of the cost of the firearms in question. No one in this thread is talking that; no one is comparing the benefits with the costs.

It was a comparison of the high costs of Prohibition with its scant benefits that led to its repeal. The same is true now of the slow progress toward the legalization of marijuana, and perhaps other "recreational drugs" in the future. These things need to be considered and decided on the basis of facts, not rhetoric.

Saying "guns don't kill by themselves" does not adress anything. That is an example of the straw man fallacy, which is to refute an argument that is not being made. That is what I suggest the OP has done. Doing so sounds good but completely avoids the real issues involved.

It's still the people, not the object. You support the NFA? When the Uvalde killer shot up a classroom, what was your first thought? Thank God he didn't have an arm brace, that could have been so much worse? Thank God that wasn't select fire, it could have been so much worse?

Are you an assault weapons ban advocate? Were you wishing he had gone into that classroom with a handgun?

Are you a handgun ban advocate and wish this guy had only gone in there with a pump shotgun?

Do you advocate gun bans? Do you wish he had stabbed a bunch of 9 year olds to death?

Of course not. If you're a rational person, you're wondering how we missed the fact a psychopathic killer was running loose, and we missed all the warning signs. The guy was talking about killing school children for months before he did it.

It's the person, not the weapon, and I think you know that.
 
I would also argue the prohibition argument isn’t the best. As I understand it, IF you remove organized crime, which I do understand is a big if, then prohibition essentially did work. Basically, all crime went down, again only if you exclude organized crime.
Also it got repealed in large part because the depression came so jobs and tax money were needed, you can go back read the speeches made in congress, few (iirc 0) argued it wasn’t working. They argued the revenue and the jobs were needed. Publicly it was certainly more of a “look at the newspapers” argument, but again the newspapers were about organized crime which you can simply not participate in.

If you weren’t involved in organized crime your chances of being a victim of crime went down, substantially during prohibition. As is common in history, it was much more complicated than simply “it didn’t work, so they fixed it”

To be clear I’m not saying it worked great and all was good. I’m saying if someone told me they could pass a law that would cause gangs to grow exponentially and double the number of gang deaths but for all non-gang members all crime would get cut in half, I don’t know if I would support that law or not. I tend to think not but……

I would also add, freedoms get restricted or you have anarchy, the debate is how much freedom is restricted. Maybe more accurately stated, who’s get restricted and why.

To the point of the OP, my son had a history teacher that told him, the thing governments were best at through out all of history, the thing they have been better at and have done more often than anyone else in history, is mass murder. That is simply a fact of history.

So one could conclude the ability to keep that in check or to fight back is priceless. I think it was the point @Frulk made in post 6.
 
In a free society, there will be those who abuse those freedoms to harm others. In a restricted society, there will still be those who skirt the law to harm others. This causes a compounding legal problem for those who are forced into a defensive situation. The notion that restrictions keep us all safe and law-abiding is foolishness.
 
How many people are injured or killed in car crashes due to negligent or aggressive drivers? Ban cars.
Nobody can argue smoking is good for you. Ban smoking.
Tattoos? Risk of infection from elective body decoration. Ban tattoos.
What breed of dog accounts for most attacks on people? Ban it.
How about NO.
I thought this was America. Oh wait, it is.
If one doesn't like that people here have the freedom to own guns move to a freedom hating country, there are plenty.
 
It's a right that comes from God and is merely enumerated so we can use the great gift of personal protection and freedom to take out a bad government. Read the documents and understand the intent. It calls for courage and determination to remain free from a tyrannical government. Freedom comes at a cost. Look at the grave markers in any National Cemetary. They paid the price. Freedom or slavery, it's your choice, choose wisely.
 
What the OP is saying, and a number of others in this thread as well, is that inaminate objects do nothing by themselves. So what? No one is saying that they do. What the issue is today is what some inanimate objects enable people to do. In 1934, it was felt that some firearms enabled people with ill intent (i.e. criminals) to kill too easily and indiscriminately. Legal action was taken at that time. We are facing the same issue today, and with many more concrete examples of the cost of the firearms in question. No one in this thread is talking that; no one is comparing the benefits with the costs.

It was a comparison of the high costs of Prohibition with its scant benefits that led to its repeal. The same is true now of the slow progress toward the legalization of marijuana, and perhaps other "recreational drugs" in the future. These things need to be considered and decided on the basis of facts, not rhetoric.

Saying "guns don't kill by themselves" does not adress anything. That is an example of the straw man fallacy, which is to refute an argument that is not being made. That is what I suggest the OP has done. Doing so sounds good but completely avoids the real issues involved.
It kinda sounds like your arguing in favor of even more restrictions than the already unconstitutional NFA
 
In 1934, it was felt that some firearms enabled people with ill intent (i.e. criminals) to kill too easily and indiscriminately. Legal action was taken at that time. We are facing the same issue today,

Hmm, so it didn’t cure the problem…shocking.

Maybe the solution is to just have a revolving door for criminals and put even more restrictions on the citizens that do follow the rules set in place. No, wait, I didn’t even have to say that out loud to realize that’s a stupid idea. Guess that’s why I’ll never be a politician…

If we can agree that bad people do bad things, there isn’t anything we can do until we get rid of them. It’s either that or we have to get rid of any and all technology that could injure anyone or otherwise be used for illegal activities. That way they have to kill us with their bare hands but we still won’t be safe, so the problem remains…
 
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If one doesn't like that people here have the freedom to own guns move to a freedom hating country, there are plenty.

Not to mention, you don’t even need to leave the USA to find your utopia, just go to one of the disarmed cities around the Country, they have room. It’s not like they are creating great places to live, rather cult like voters and crummy places to live. This way, they force people to escape to go live somewhere else and infect wherever that is with failed policies.

Why does no one seek the answer to, why our “gun free zones” are not the safest place to be in this world? If antigun people were right, they would be.
 
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Yes. Our nation's history includes the right to bear arms, a revolutionary spirit and one nation under God. Are they for everyone? NO. That's fine. Is Islam in the Middle East for everyone? They don't seem to care either.

We can still have justice and our 2A.
 
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You could ask that question about swimming pools, lakes, rivers, 5 gallon buckets, cars, medical operations, all kinds of things that kill people, many of which kill a lot more people than guns.

A crazy man/idiot/drunk kills with a car, they blame the person. Same thing with a gun and they blame the gun.

The anti gun cause is not about saving lives, it’s about control and disarming the peasants so they can’t fight back.

Plain and simple, been that way since the first “leaders” took away clubs, swords, axes…. etc.
 
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