Is the Marine Corp. going back to the .45 Cal.
- Thread starter xXxplosive
- Start date
- Status
usp9
Member
Doesn't look like reliability is a desired feature.
Looks like they want to replace some worn out 1911s.
xXxplosive
Member
Yeah...........look at the Misprint in the heading, guess this pistol will be known as the Moosecock .45Cal.
devildog4329
Member
This is for MARSOC which basically replaced RECON. It is supposed to be the Marine Corps equivalent of SOCOM. They feilded the Kimber Warrior a few years ago.
Fishslayer
Member
I always wondered why the "special" people got the .45 while the regulars had to use the 9mm. To me it kinda implies that the powers that be consider the 9mm not quite up to the task?
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Because the "Special" people get enough training & live-fire range time with them to hit something, and not shoot themselves in the process.
Non-"special" troops don't get enough trigger-time in training with the M9 Beretta's to hardly say they shot them at all. Many troops now don't even get to shoot pistols in basic or AIT from what I understand.
It is a proven fact that the 9mm is easier for inexperianced trainees to qualify with then the .45.
rc
Non-"special" troops don't get enough trigger-time in training with the M9 Beretta's to hardly say they shot them at all. Many troops now don't even get to shoot pistols in basic or AIT from what I understand.
It is a proven fact that the 9mm is easier for inexperianced trainees to qualify with then the .45.
rc
I'd be willing to be special operations have a stronger consideration for silenced performance.
if you are velocity limited, then you will obviously want to take the biggest baddest slug you can find.
it's the only application where, IMO, the .45 is justified over the 9mm.
if you are velocity limited, then you will obviously want to take the biggest baddest slug you can find.
it's the only application where, IMO, the .45 is justified over the 9mm.
Average Joe
Member
No, 9mm is here to stay.
Shear_stress
Member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2005
- Messages
- 2,728
Pistols don't win wars. They just start them.
Zerodefect
member
Friend of mine a few states away is in Recon. He said they just got issued some 1911's. Didn't say what they were.
REAPER4206969
Member
The Marines just ordered a bunch of M9A1's.
The Marine Corps never stopped using the .45 as the 1911 is still used in Force Recon and MARSOC. This purchase is for 5,000 pistols at most. Many will stay in the rear as spares and others will replace the worn out 1911's in use and equip expanding units.
MARSOC did not replace Recon. There is still Division Recon and Force RECON which are Marine Corps assets. MARSOC is a national asset. The Marine Corps has never issued the Kimber Warrior and never would. The Warrior is Kimbers lame attempt to mimi the MEU (SOC) 1911 but has the usual poor quality control and crappy parts you find in all Kimbers. Springfield did the same thing with their MC Operator but that is a good usable pistol that I highly recommend. Some Kimber slides and frames were purchased but the parts are specified from multiple other sources and a Dawson rail is used.
Navy SEALs have more of a pool of weapons to choose from but it is a very limited pool. Any thing they use still has to be maintained with parts and ammo and armorers so they cannot just use anything they want contrary to popular belief. Almost all SF, i.e Special Forces meaning Green Berets use M9's although some use Glock 19's because that is what the indigenous forces they work with use. Other SF, like Delta etc are a different story.
The .45 is "justified" over the 9 because JHP's are not allowed so you might as well make a bigger hole if you are restricted to ball ammo. Velocity has nothing to do with it.
All of the services bought more M9's because we are in the middle of multiple wars and there is not enough time and money right now to do a wholesale sidearm replacement so that program was canceled. At least the USMC has made it marginally better by speccing the M9A1. Nobody is happy with the M9 and never have been except for those who have never used anything else and have nothing to compare it to.
MARSOC did not replace Recon. There is still Division Recon and Force RECON which are Marine Corps assets. MARSOC is a national asset. The Marine Corps has never issued the Kimber Warrior and never would. The Warrior is Kimbers lame attempt to mimi the MEU (SOC) 1911 but has the usual poor quality control and crappy parts you find in all Kimbers. Springfield did the same thing with their MC Operator but that is a good usable pistol that I highly recommend. Some Kimber slides and frames were purchased but the parts are specified from multiple other sources and a Dawson rail is used.
Navy SEALs have more of a pool of weapons to choose from but it is a very limited pool. Any thing they use still has to be maintained with parts and ammo and armorers so they cannot just use anything they want contrary to popular belief. Almost all SF, i.e Special Forces meaning Green Berets use M9's although some use Glock 19's because that is what the indigenous forces they work with use. Other SF, like Delta etc are a different story.
The .45 is "justified" over the 9 because JHP's are not allowed so you might as well make a bigger hole if you are restricted to ball ammo. Velocity has nothing to do with it.
All of the services bought more M9's because we are in the middle of multiple wars and there is not enough time and money right now to do a wholesale sidearm replacement so that program was canceled. At least the USMC has made it marginally better by speccing the M9A1. Nobody is happy with the M9 and never have been except for those who have never used anything else and have nothing to compare it to.
mljdeckard
Member
M-9s may be easier to qualify with when put against WWII era 1911s that were re-conditioned during the Vietnam era.
I don't plan on using anything other than the M-9 as my issue sidearm. Ever. And just because I don't PREFER the M-9 doesn't mean I don't know how to use one.
And Shear Stress is right. IT DOESN'T MATTER. (To the Department of Defense, that is. It might matter a great deal to individual soldiers.) The choice of sidearm has never affected the outcome of a war.
I don't plan on using anything other than the M-9 as my issue sidearm. Ever. And just because I don't PREFER the M-9 doesn't mean I don't know how to use one.
And Shear Stress is right. IT DOESN'T MATTER. (To the Department of Defense, that is. It might matter a great deal to individual soldiers.) The choice of sidearm has never affected the outcome of a war.
REAPER4206969
Member
Is that why the Beretta 92 series is one of the most widely used military and police pistols in the world?
mljdeckard
Member
I do agree that most people who use it as an issue sidearm have little if any experience with other handguns. They wouldn't know.
I also agree that if it were about the opinion of the soldiers who actually use the gun, we wouldn't be using the M-9.
I also agree that if it were about the opinion of the soldiers who actually use the gun, we wouldn't be using the M-9.
inherentical
Member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2007
- Messages
- 753
Well, obviously those dumb jarheads don't read the forums.
REAPER4206969
Member
The M9 with real Beretta magazines is a superb fighting pistol by any knowledgeable shooters estimation.
Full Metal Jacket
member
Springfield armory's MC Operator (Marine Corps Operator) was made for Marine pistol trials a few years back. It passed all the tests with flying colors, but the concept of specially anti-terrorist tactics trained marine companies was abandoned, as was the requisite new sidearm.
Given a choice between the worn out old 1911s the Corps had or a nice M9. I'm glad I used and carried the M9. I've never seen a stoppage on the range or a failure for the M9 to work when I was needed. I wasn't in the desert either though so I can't attest to it's performance in the sand but I had and still have total confidence in the M9.
mljdeckard
Member
^^ Of course I wouldn't play fair in either case.
When I was the assistant armorer in 1992, I picked through the old 1911s in the rack. Pretty hammered, jiggle between the barrel and bushing, waggle in the link, magazines from....WHO KNOWS where. Triggers were either way too heavy or slick to the point of being dangerous. But the armorer showed me his PERSONAL gun, which he kept separate, he had rebuilt the whole thing, it was fantastic. He said that when they qualified, the commander borrowed his, because it was the only one that functioned properly. I said, "Ok, if all you have to do is detail strip and replace a few parts to greatly improve them, why don't we do it to all of them?" He replied that he wasn't going to bother to fix them if we were just going to trade them in for M-9s in a few months anyway. (which we did.)
If I have EITHER pistol, I will get the best magazines, holsters, grips, etc what I can get away with to make it as ideal as possible.
And reaper, whether or not it's a good pistol, most servicemen who use it have absolutely no idea. I am one who liked it at the time but now would prefer several other pistols first given the choice.
When I was the assistant armorer in 1992, I picked through the old 1911s in the rack. Pretty hammered, jiggle between the barrel and bushing, waggle in the link, magazines from....WHO KNOWS where. Triggers were either way too heavy or slick to the point of being dangerous. But the armorer showed me his PERSONAL gun, which he kept separate, he had rebuilt the whole thing, it was fantastic. He said that when they qualified, the commander borrowed his, because it was the only one that functioned properly. I said, "Ok, if all you have to do is detail strip and replace a few parts to greatly improve them, why don't we do it to all of them?" He replied that he wasn't going to bother to fix them if we were just going to trade them in for M-9s in a few months anyway. (which we did.)
If I have EITHER pistol, I will get the best magazines, holsters, grips, etc what I can get away with to make it as ideal as possible.
And reaper, whether or not it's a good pistol, most servicemen who use it have absolutely no idea. I am one who liked it at the time but now would prefer several other pistols first given the choice.
Most servicemen never touch an M9. If I wasn't an MP I wouldn't have either. When I used to travel I had 4th Award Rifle and Pistol Badges on my uniform. I got a LOT of comments from other servicemen. Most of them wondered who the heck I was that I had a pistol badge.
xXxplosive
Member
Would like to hear the opinion of someone like Mr. Robt. J. Thomas who sucessfully defended his surviving injured fellow US Navy Seals after their helicopter was shot down in Viet Nam. Injured himself, he then defended against the Vietcong attack with his 1911 Govt. Model......
I believe I read there was a body count of 37 enemy KIA when help arrived...he was up for the Medal Of Honor which was lessened to the Navy Cross by the time the brass got it.....
IMO.....an amazing Hero with a heroic firearm.
I believe I read there was a body count of 37 enemy KIA when help arrived...he was up for the Medal Of Honor which was lessened to the Navy Cross by the time the brass got it.....
IMO.....an amazing Hero with a heroic firearm.
- Status
