Is the new colt m4 any better than the rest of the milspecs out there?

[Old Dog]

If someone asked me what Milspec type AR to buy I would steer them towards BCM, which I feel is a better built, more reliable firearm that a Colt.

And yet, BCM's base model complete 16" rifle goes for $1560, $470 more than Colt's. By that measure, one would expect a somewhat better built rifle than a Colt.

Once you get to a certain level, it's mostly subjective, how guys feel about certain features or cosmetics. And brand loyalty. (Of course, I did once buy a Daniel Defense rifle because I fell in love with the stock and the pistol grip.)

Ask ten AR hobbyists what's the best AR, you'll probably get at least seven or eight different answers.

And as far as "paying premium" prices for brands, what is a premium price for one guy might be a budget price for the next guy.

I used to teach academy firearms training courses; a lot of guys (and gals), upon shooting the AR patrol carbines for their first time ever shooting an AR, enjoyed the experience and many decided they wanted one of their own. As we left the range one day, a new officer asked me what the best least-expensive AR was... while we stood next to his brand-new $75,000 pick-up truck. Then I've met guys at the range who work minimum wage jobs, some part-time only, and they'd be rocking a $3100 Noveske Recon with an $1800 Nightforce LPVO mounted...

 

[C-grunt]

There is zero evidence that current Colts are made any different than older Colts. Colt has always outsourced small parts. Their small parts have always been high quality. You aren't getting bargain bin springs and screws like you get on some rifles. The thing people were screaming about last year about Colt changing had to do with markings. Colt has had a huge number of marking variations over the years.

As far as pricing goes, Colt is competitive. I was just in a local gun store the other day and a plain jane Colt M4 6920 was 950 bucks. People want to compare that to PSA pricing and say Colt is over priced. That thinking doesnt take into account that PSA pricing is direct from manufacturer pricing. Colt isn't selling the rifle for 950 bucks. They sell the rifle for around 650-700 bucks to a distributor who then tacks on a hundred bucks and sells it to the gun store who tacks on a hundred bucks and sells it to you.

If you look at the PSA Sabre line, their premium and duty grade line, they aren't 450 dollar Freedom packages anymore. Their cheapest "duty grade" AR15 rifle is 850 dollars and goes up to 1500 dollars.

Colt makes a very well built duty ready rifle. The rifle is built to specs that have proven over decades of combat to provide a reliable rifle that will withstand hard use and time. You also get independent milspec checking done on important parts. Ive been carrying M16/M4/AR15s professionally for 21 years. Ive been down the "just as good" route and it ended up with a bunch of money lost to replace rifles that were just a few years old. My Colt that replaced that Bushmaster went well over 10k rounds and 10 years of duty use with no issues.

 

[Old Dog]

^ Yessir, thank you @C-grunt. Lost in all the noise is that most of those that've professionally, and heavily used ARs for many years don't typically go on line to trumpet how bad the company's products are while touting the latest phenomenal boutique AR as the greatest thing sinced sliced bread.

The YouTubers such as "SmallArmsSolutions" make these 20-minute videos where they go over eleventy-seven hundred minute details on products to "prove" that a company's products have gone completely to poop.

Then look to see who some of his, er, their sponsors are.

 

[tarosean]

That thinking doesnt take into account that PSA pricing is direct from manufacturer pricing.

Don’t forget they love to skirt the excise tax affecting every sportsman who enjoys our natural resources.

 

[C-grunt]

I love PSA for what they are doing for the 2A as a whole. I really really like their products too. I have seven of their products and recommend them for guys getting into the AR world. My brother in law recently bought his first AR from PSA and it's currently in my safe until he gets a safe. For 650 bucks it's a great rifle.

That being said I wouldn't take one to Iraq. Their barrels are overgassed and the buffers are to light. They also have a long history of less than great QA/QC. For a fighting rifle I want a rifle made to milspec (i get the 16 inch barrel isn't milspec) or something that is a known improvement over milspec.

 

[CraigC]

My point of comparison is not a PSA, Radical, etc., or any other bargain basement AR. I'm looking specifically at S&W and Springfield. A Colt will be at least $900. When I checked Davidson's, the best local price for a standard M4 type carbine it was over $1000. Meanwhile, the same rifle from S&W or Springfield is well below that. I paid $700 for a Saint last year with B5 furniture. If you buy the Colt posted above with no furniture, you're going to spend another $300 for a good free float tube, grip and butt. It ain't a huge difference but it's higher enough that people start threads about it on discussion boards. It's not that there's anything wrong with them, there's just nothing exceptional about them either.

 

[FL-NC]

There is absolutely nothing special about a Colt performance-wise.

 

[Terry G]

All very interesting. Reliability? I've never had a malfunction with that 1970 era SP-1. How can you get more reliable than that? Nope, I'll stick to the "over priced" Colt. My LE6920 was about $1200.00 as I recall. I've paid more than that for a pistol.

 

[silicosys4]

You can build a better AR from PSA for under $650 WITH furniture
than the Colt 6920 you can buy without furniture for $750.

$120 enhanced complete lower
https://palmettostatearmory.com/blem-psa-ar15-complete-moe-ept-stealth-lower-black.html

$380 premium upper

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-chf-1-7-a2-mid-length-556-prem-classic-ar15-upper-assembly-no-bcg-ch.html

$99 premium BCG

https://palmettostatearmory.com/palmetto-state-armory-5-56-premium-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-8779.html

$16 7075 charging handle

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-ar15-m16-7075-t6-forged-mil-spec-charging-handle-24080.html

A coated and polished FCG isn't milspec, an enhanced trigger guard profile isn't milspec, and I doubt a CHF barrel is milspec,
But all those added together makes the non-milspec PSA a better rifle, IMO, than the Colt, for less money.

Can anybody explain why a CMMG LPK is $50, and a Colt LPK is $95, other than the Colt name?

 

[InTheSwamp]

Can anybody explain why a CMMG LPK is $50, and a Colt LPK is $95, other than the Colt name?

The Colt name...

 

[Old Dog]

Gosh, so some folks are just now noticing that with regard to firearms, one might pay more for an older, established brand-name product than one from lesser-known, more recently come to the market, maker?

Motor vehicles, motorcycles, vacuum cleaners, power tools, appliances, kitchenware, electronics, boots, shoes, clothing, sporting goods, sportswear/fashion wear...

Why would anyone think firearms are gonna be any different?

On a side note, I remain amused, and somewhat bemused as well, seeing how the brand name "Colt" garners so many responses from those who join the discusssions just to pooh-pooh the brand while feeling compelled to explain that there are always better options for less money. We've been seeing that in the 1911 arena for years. Ah, well.

 

[mcb]

Let's see Colt has gone bankrupt at least twice (92, 15), been baled out by sweetheart deals from Gov/DOD and other companies on a few other occasions and yet, is now a foreign owned company to avoid another bankruptcy. Colt has played a historic role in the firearms market of the past but the Colt company of the 1990's till today is a shadow of that former company living off it's name and nostalgia. They have not done anything innovative since the 1960's. Their products at best case, are good, but come with that Colt premium.

Blindly buying from an old established brands thinking your getting the best (when your not) is just as reprehensible as blindly ignoring the new up and coming thinking they are not the best (cause sometimes they are).

Tesla is kicking the big three established US automotive company's arses and has a market share bigger than all three combined. Old and established means nothing if you're resting on your laurels. Colt has been resting on it's laurels since at least the 1980's.

 

[CraigC]

Colt has lived and died by the government contract for literally all of its existence.

 

[tarosean]

You can build a better AR from PSA for under $700 WITH furniture
than the Colt 6920 you can buy without furniture for $750.

<$100 difference and want to guess which one will be worth a lot more on the used market?

 

[mcb]

<$100 difference and want to guess which one will be worth a lot more on the used market?

It's a tool I am more likely to wear it out than sell it. Guns are really crappy investments.

 

[tarosean]

Guns are really crappy investments.

That we will agree.. Crap happens though, and they are assets that can be liquidated quickly. Might as well maximize rather than shoot yourself in the foot. I’ve got a few in my safe that are basically giveaways, as they are too worthless to bother selling.

 

[C-grunt]

Shmidt Tool makes Colt LPK. Very high quality parts. If you look around for a Shmidt Tool LPK for sale they are pretty much the same price as Colt LPK.

Can you put together a good rifle for cheaper? Yeah. Find a good spec'd upper on clearance like Silicosys4 linked and you can save a good amount of money. I again remind people that a complete rifle purchased at the store comes with the 11 percent fed tax as well as mark ups from distributors and the store.

If you are planning on buying the PSA package remember to factor in the cost of a H or H2 buffer, shipping, and FFL transfer fee.

 

[Terry G]

It's a tool I am more likely to wear it out than sell it. Guns are really crappy investments.

No they're not. The modern ones maybe, but the C&R guns I bought for a couple hundred dollars or less (Enfield's, SKS's, Mausers, Makarovs, CZ 82's and Webley's are worth several times what I paid. The S&W M1917 re-import from Brazil was $135.00. Price one now. How about this Colt? Think it may have gone up on pri ce?

 

[tarosean]

but the C&R guns I bought for a couple hundred dollars or less (Enfield's, SKS's, Mausers, Makarovs, CZ 82's and Webley's are worth several times what I paid. The S&W M1917 re-import from Brazil was $135.00.

Now stick your numbers in an inflation calculator. A few dollars over decades isn’t a good investment.

CPI Inflation Calculator

 

[CraigC]

Maybe I'm weird but I've never bought a gun to make money. I buy guns to spend money. Whatever they're worth won't be relevant until I'm dead and gone.

 

[Old Dog]

Colt has played a historic role in the firearms market of the past but the Colt company of the 1990's till today is a shadow of that former company living off it's name and nostalgia. They have not done anything innovative since the 1960's. Their products at best case, are good, but come with that Colt premium.

Colt has been resting on it's laurels since at least the 1980's.

Colt is doing just fine these days. Some of y'all don't understand business.
https://www.zippia.com/colt-s-manufacturing-company-careers-19643/competitors/

A "shadow of that former company..."

I went to war with Colt rifles, doing some serious things in bad places. It's just a friggin' tool that does its job. Following that career (over 25 years), I've spent a bit more time (another 17 years) with Colt rifles and had the opportunity to not only maintain a number of them, but instruct with them, train with them and observe their performance in hard use.

Does the military or any U.S. law enforcement entities do bulk purchases of PSA rifles? Why not? They're "good enough," right? And much cheaper... Or other boutique brands? Not normally. How many who like to point out a manufacturer's (I.e., Colt) checkered business history or quickly note that one can build a fabulous AR with quality parts for less than the retail price of a manufacturer's (i.e., Colt) complete rifle, have ever carried an M-4 in real life and depended on that rifle to defend one's life?

Honestly, it's so strange that so many folks want to plug brands that aren't paying them for their endorsements, while continuing to disparage a brand that most have never even used in the real world. What's up with this?

I'm concluding that there are just some folks out there who will always reflexively argue against certain brands, just because...

 

[InTheSwamp]

The Colt name...

Gosh, so some folks are just now noticing that with regard to firearms, one might pay more for an older, established brand-name product than one from lesser-known, more recently come to the market, maker?

Motor vehicles, motorcycles, vacuum cleaners, power tools, appliances, kitchenware, electronics, boots, shoes, clothing, sporting goods, sportswear/fashion wear...

Why would anyone think firearms are gonna be any different?

On a side note, I remain amused, and somewhat bemused as well, seeing how the brand name "Colt" garners so many responses from those who join the discusssions just to pooh-pooh the brand while feeling compelled to explain that there are always better options for less money. We've been seeing that in the 1911 arena for years. Ah, well.

That's what my comment meant or intended to.

 

[Buzznrose]

It's a tool I am more likely to wear it out than sell it. Guns are really crappy investments.

Investment is a funny word when it come to most tools, including guns. To me, investment means you are using one resource to gain another resource for increasing value or worth. If you are a carpenter/construction worker, you buy tools to generate income or grow a business. If you are a guy like me who doesn’t work in the trades, I buy tools to get things done for my own benefit but not as means to gain value, although is may be something of a benefit, it’s not primary.

Guns as a whole are not a good or a bad investment. Like many categories of “things”, some are more desirable than others.
Buying a Ruger, Glock or a Taurus for SD, sport shooting, or hunting isn’t investment, it procurement of a tool. Buying a pristine WWII 1911 to add to a collection one hopes to increase in value is a investment.

I see guns as durable goods. If I buy a solid firearm from a reputable manufacturer, and I use proper ammunition and take care of it to include buying some spare parts like springs, magazines, or other wear items, I should reasonably expect this purchase to last many many years. Or at least many many rounds, which is the real longevity of a firearm.

Folks who bought a Glock or a 10/22 or a 1911 and put 15-30 thousand trouble-free rounds through the firearm certainly cannot complain they did not get their value from the gun. And those same folks can probably sell the gun for near what it was purchased for after much use.

Tell me another durable good that you can claim that from?

 

[Buzznrose]

Regarding the AR manufacturing world, and the different makers who do work, outsource, etc. You cannot lump it all into a single level of product.

Consider this, you have company ABC and company XYZ. Both make “mil spec” AR’s. Both outsource their bolts to company GGG.

ABC provided GGG their specifications for the bolts. They want a specific grade steel, a specific level of inspection and testing, a specific level of QC. Basically, they spec out a high quality component. GGG is a great company and produces the components to spec for $45 per unit.

XYZ also uses GGG to build bolts. But their specs are different. They are fine to use a lower grade steel, and require half the inspection and testing and a third of the QC.

GGG builds the bolt to XYZ specs for $33 per unit.

Same component, same manufacturer, much different quality.

So simply saying one company outsources and another uses a certain vendor isn’t really telling the whole story.

A PSA bolt carrier group will likely give very good service until it fails, much like a Sons of Liberty Gunworks BCG. But based on the different specs, one should last for more rounds (have a greater round life) than the other.

Same goes for all the other key parts like barrel, gas system, etc.

As consumers, we need to understand the difference and more importantly, we need to understand our expectations for the product and buy accordingly.

Full disclosure, I own several AR’s. Some are what I consider “duty grade”, and some are “consumer grade “. I like them all, but I understand they are different.

 

[sisyphus]

I'd take a Spike's with an FN CHF chrome lined barrel over a Colt, although you may need a piece of chewing gun beneath the rear takedown pin so the receivers don't rattle so bad.

Diminishing returns. Spikes and BCM are a good entry point for trust your life to them ARs. A Daniel Defense won't look much different but it'll shoot coin sized groups. A Larue will impress you both with the quality of how it all looks and fits and the coin sized groups it shoots. IMO the finest rifle I ever bought or built is the 14.5" LMT that I will never part with.