Is the revolver really a practical defensive weapon?

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Let's see ol' Jerry shoot that fast and accurate using a stock production S&W 686 off a dealer's shelf, with an 8 to 9 pound trigger pull and firing full .357 magnum defensive loads.

I've seen it, and it is still impressive. He can still fire more rounds down range than this C class USPSA production shooter. He is the exception to the rule. An amazing guy.

whw
 
What Nematocyst conveniently neglected to mention regarding the youtube video he posted, is that Jerry Miculek's firearm was a specially made custom race revolver, built specifically for competition in the Smith & Wesson custom shop.

It has a heavily doctored trigger with about a one pound pull, and Miculek was using very light target loads that would be pretty much worthless in a self-defense situation.

Let's see ol' Jerry shoot that fast and accurate using a stock production S&W 686 off a dealer's shelf, with an 8 to 9 pound trigger pull and firing full .357 magnum defensive loads.

It ain't gonna happen!

So, you're just saying, if you're armed with a revolver, when attacked, it's only good for rolling over onto it like the British did to their rifles when the Afghan women came down from the hills with their knives... quoth Kipling.
 
So, you're just saying, if you're armed with a revolver, when attacked, it's only good for rolling over onto it like the British did to their rifles when the Afghan women came down from the hills with their knives... quoth Kipling.

Odd you should say that. At the battle of the Little Bighorn, at least one trooper did that. The source for this is the accounts of the Indians who saw him do it. You can see an illustration of his suicide in Amos Bad Horn Bull's famous ledger book, published as, A Pictographic History of the Oglala Sioux.
 
It has a heavily doctored trigger with about a one pound pull, and Miculek was using very light target loads that would be pretty much worthless in a self-defense situation.
actually Jerry uses a much heavier than stock trigger return spring to keep him from over running the trigger, and since he must make major power factor to compete in IPSC they are not light.

TRY AGAIN
 
Jerry Miculek's firearm was a specially made custom race revolver, built specifically for competition in the Smith & Wesson custom shop.

It has a heavily doctored trigger with about a one pound pull

TRY AGAIN

I agree with mavracer. Besides, even Randy Lee, the wizard revolver smith who does miracle trigger jobs on many competition revolvers can "only" get a DA trigger down to about 4 pounds.

Though the action's probably been tuned & smoothened, JM is pretty clear that he uses revolvers with a pretty stock trigger pull. Ed McGivern, arguably the fastest revolver shooter in history used stock S&W revolvers. "Smooth" ought not be confused with "light". Nor should one automatically assume that a revolver can only be shot rapidly if the trigger pull is light. Guys like JM & McGivern are/were fast because they practice(d) shooting fast. What a concept. :rolleyes:
 
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Some folks see technology as an answer to a training problem.

Fast reloads. Fast trigger work. Why should anyone have to learn how to use a weapon with deadly efficiency, speed and accuracy when you let some mechanism do it all for you?
 
My answer: "Yes"

I went through all of the posts and came across a couple interesting things.

Revolver jamming at the range? How does a revolver jam? I have yet to have a stove pipe in my S&W Mod 19 that I carry and don't think it is ever going to happen.

Jerry M. only shoots fast and accurate because he is shooting light loads in a custom tuned revolver. Sure, and all of those guys who particpate in the "games" with their semi-autos are shooting +P+ carry ammo in non-tuned handguns.

The fastest and most accurate way I can get two rounds center mass at 21 feet is with my K frame S&W. Is the trigger smoothed and tuned? You bet. I'm not a new shooter and have been shooting handguns for sport, hunting, military service, self defense and just for yucks for decades.

When I leave the house with the 2 1/2" S&W 357 in the IWB plus an extra six in a speed strip I'm fully armed for the reason I carry it. I carry it for me and any loved one that might accompany me in an life threatening situation. I don't carry it to protect you, our society or anything else except my life or my loved ones. I'm not a caped avenger seeking to fight crime or right wrongs. If I opt to get into a fire fight it won't be with any of my handguns and I'll make sure to take a few rifles and shotgun along.

Having said all of that.... If you have your reasons for carrying a self defense semi-auto that makes sense to you and are comforting to you then I wouldn't try to convince you otherwise.
 
Some folks see technology as an answer to a training problem.

Fast reloads. Fast trigger work. Why should anyone have to learn how to use a weapon with deadly efficiency, speed and accuracy when you let some mechanism do it all for you?
No one said they selected a self loader or revolver so they can train less.

So, if you are in charge of an army armed with muzzle loader and when troops asks for assault rifles after they got beaten by another army with it, your reply would be "Just train harder"?
If your army got beaten again, are you going to say, "No, that does not count. They used technology to beat us, and my troops score higher in bull's eye and reloading skills."?
 
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The original question wise, I already answered it.

Now, which probability is higher? Probability of self loaders such as Glock or SIG jamming or percentage of pistol shooting incidents where more than 6 shots were fired?

Even if I assume percentage of pistol shooting incidents where more than 6 shots were needed as 1%, which would be ridiculously and unrealistically lower than actual numbers, that would still be at least hundred times higher probability than a SIG or Glock malfunctioning.
 
Revolver jamming at the range? How does a revolver jam? I have yet to have a stove pipe in my S&W Mod 19 that I carry and don't think it is ever going to happen./QUOTE]
=======================
I've had a couple of instances when my revolver "jammed." My Ruger GP100's cylinder wouldn't rotate after 6 to 10 rounds were fired. I guess you could call that a failure to go into battery in semi auto terms. A trip back to the factory fixed the problem, but required replacement of all the internals.

I also had a S&W Perf Center 586, a beautiful gun, but one that just didn't work well. After about 50 rounds of .357 magnum loads, the cylinder couldn't be moved. Not able to fire or swing the cylinder out to unload/reload. Again, off to the factory for repair.

In my limited experience, the most reliable handguns I've ever used have been the 9mm Glocks. Strangely enough, I hate the darn things. They are ugly and without a soul, but this comes from a guy that still uses fountain pens.

Guess what I carry----

whw
 
No one said they selected a self loader or revolver so they can train less.

So, if you are in charge of an army armed with muzzle loader and when troops asks for assault rifles after they got beaten by another army with it, your reply would be "Just train harder"?
If your army got beaten again, are you going to say, "No, that does not count. They used technology to beat us, and my troops score higher in bull's eye and reloading skills."?

Apples. Oranges. Fruit salad.

I'd rather take a hardcore revolver shooter on my side than a casual autoloader shooter. Comparing a musket to an M-16 is a vastly different kettle of fish than comparing a Model 10 K-frame to a Glock 17.

In reductum absurdum. Hence, refuted and ignored.
 
Apples. Oranges. Fruit salad.

I'd rather take a hardcore revolver shooter on my side than a casual autoloader shooter. Comparing a musket to an M-16 is a vastly different kettle of fish than comparing a Model 10 K-frame to a Glock 17.

In reductum absurdum. Hence, refuted and ignored.

The musket and assault rifle example is not an analogy about self loaders and revolvers. The example is to illustrate that your assertion that more training can always make up for technological gap is erroneous. What part of that did you refute?

A group of people may be trained to reload a revolver quickly, but given the same amount of training, that same group of people will be able to reload a self loader more faster. And, that self loader they reloaded will require less reloading. What part of that did you refute?

Refuted? Just because you declared so?

...Why should anyone have to learn how to use a weapon with deadly efficiency, speed and accuracy when you let some mechanism do it all for you? ...
I'd rather take a hardcore revolver shooter on my side than a casual autoloader shooter.
Did you prove that people who use self loader are has less mastery over their pistol than revolver shooters?
 
"The gun he used for the 5-shot effort came from the S&W Performance Center in 1994 and is basically a Model 66 with a special "V"-shaped, ported barrel. The action is stock, although Jim Rae, the Performance Center's revolver magician, who was there, said that it had been "smoothed up" a bit but everything was stock. The ammo he used as a standard target .38 Special handload of 2.7 gr. Bullseye with a 148 gr. cast wadcutter bullet, similar to what McGivern shot."---American Handgunner Magazine

Miculek's supposedly "stock" revolver was built by custom competition revolver guru Jim Rae in the Smith & Wesson Performance Center, and included a special "V"-shaped, ported barrel. Rae "smoothed up" the action, and Miculek was shooting very anemic .38 Special target loads with wadcutter bullets.

Like I said, Miculek CAN'T shoot that fast with a completely stock production 686, firing full powered .357 Magnum defensive loads.

Any way you look at it, your king is STILL wearing no clothes! :evil: :neener:
 
Apparently mavracer missed Jerry Miculek's own instructional DVD entitled Trigger Job, where Jerry explains how to "Tune" the action and make the trigger pull LIGHTER on a revolver.

Anybody who believes Miculek uses completely stock, production revolvers in his demonstrations and competitions is living in a fantasy world. :D :p

"This program shows complete gunsmithing procedures to "Tune" the overall action of your revolver; resulting in a smoother, lighter, more predictable trigger pull. You'll learn how to reduce metal to metal friction and why trigger return can be more important than trigger pull. Plus, Jerry Miculek shows you complete disassembly and reassembly of the Smith & Wesson Revolver, the relationship and function of all parts, and full nomenclature. A wealth of information presented to you by the most accomplished revolver shooter alive, Jerry Miculek. Applies to K, L, N frame revolvers."

http://gunvideo.com/index.php?category_id=314&tpl=pgroup_descrip&pid=5533&return=?
 
The example is to illustrate that your assertion that more training can always make up for technological gap is erroneous.
so you would be willing to go take an M-16 into the woods after a highly trained gurrila armed with a muzzle loader.Doug was right some people think firepower will always make up for training and guess what he was talkin about you.
 
Apparently mavracer missed Jerry Miculek's own instructional DVD entitled Trigger Job, where Jerry explains how to "Tune" the action and make the trigger pull LIGHTER on a revolver.

Anybody who believes Miculek uses completely stock, production revolvers in his demonstrations and competitions is living in a fantasy world.
a. didn't say it was stock I said he uses a heavier than stock trigger return spring and his trigger pull is heavier than stock.
B. in order to compete in IPSC and score major you must make major power factor which is 165,000
C. just because I can tell you how to take a glock 21 apart an install a 3.5# trigger kit,doesn't mean i've ever shot one
 
Testpilot - what kind of situations are you even expecting that would require handguns to need to fire fifty rounds in short amounts of time?

And, pray tell, 'splain why these people didn't bring rifles and shotguns if the stuff were that serious.
 
Testpilot - what kind of situations are you even expecting that would require handguns to need to fire fifty rounds in short amounts of time?

And, pray tell, 'splain why these people didn't bring rifles and shotguns if the stuff were that serious.
Today 08:58 AM
Combat, whether if it's law enforcement officer engaged in a protracted gun fight or a general citizen caught in a self defense situation, does not go by how they want it to be. What I or anyone else "expect" is irrelelvant. What is relevant is situations criminals bring to us.


There has been gunfights where more than 6 rounds were needed, in a legetimate self defense situation. Are you denying this? Even master gunfighters are not confident with 100% hits in combat. Even if they do score 100% hits, it may take multiple shots, and there may be multiple susptect. The suspects may be behind good cover, and hard to hit. Not all people who fired more than 6 shots or even 15 shots were bad shooters. Why do you think good shooters such as Jim Cirillo gave lessons about "New York Reload"? He used revolvers for duty, and that proves he did not think "I'm a good shot, so I only need 6."

Why not rifles and shot gun? Does the person carry a rifle and shot gun? Do the person live in a sorry state that requires combat effective rifles to be butchered to have pinned magazine and with only 10 roudnd capacity? Is the person more proficient with a pistol than a shot gun? Take a pick.
If they have a rifle and shotgun available, and proficient with it, they might as well go with that instead of a pistol, even if it was a revolver. So, why is that even relevant?

Having 15 round do not mean you have to use all of them, but how can having it be bad?
 
are you a military personal or a police officer that knows some day you will get into a fire fight? most instances that CCW holders come into use is a close quators combat that you only need 1 or 2 shots to get the point acrost. you not going to run towards the sounds of gun fire and engage in a fire fight nor would you exchange rounds with a shooter in a mall. you would get the hell out of dodge, unless cornered then you would take your time and give a good shot. no need for 80 rounds.

i almost see carrying a higher cap. auto with a reload to be over kill.

i carry a .357mag revolver in a d-frame colt size. thats all i need with my HKS speed loaders.
 
Self defense isn't competition shooting

While it's true that Jerry Miculek's speed shooting and competition form is excellent, the reverse side of that is that self defense isn't competition shooting. Whether or not you're using a revolver or pistol, you have to hit the target and the load has to "get the job done".

I agree that he probably couldn't shoot with the speed and accuracy that he does in competition in a self defense situation, but after his first two shots or so, it should all be over. If not, then he could be getting into a problem.

If he's shooting .357 "full loads", his first hit will most probably take the target down. I shoot both, and carry both, for different reasons. Revolvers provide "close contact" firepower, and pistols carry "extended fire" amounts of ammo. If I'm in a room with an assailant, I don't need 18 rounds... if I'm needing to reload my revolver, I'm in big trouble anyway. On the other hand, if I'm in a parking lot, and the assailant is ducking behind cars and telephone poles, I'm going to need more ammo to insure that I keep him pinned down.

As a former LEO, I can promise you that contentious situations are fluid... and you need to be prepared for whatever is going on... not simply imagine your scenario and then arm for it. I carry both pistols and revolvers in varying combinations... and, Oh yes... don't forget the "backup gun". I've known lots of ex-Leo's who, if they didn't learn anything else, learned that the guy who can keep firing is usually the winner.

Speed loaders, and extra clips are the key to continuing to run the gun, but revolver speed loaders are bulky and not good concealed carry items. The clips offer a flat profile that allows you to carry as many as you want without giving away that you have the ammo for an extended firefight. With revolvers, the old "pocket full of ammo" just won't get it done... but still don't sell them short.

It really doesn't matter what you carry as long as you can bullseye the target under pressure. I don't know if Jerry Miculek can "draw and fire" his self defense weapons to match his competition speed or not, but in either case, I don't think I want to be downrange of him.

WT
 
...close quators combat that you only need 1 or 2 shots to get the point acrost. ...
I hope who ever criminal who attempts to threaten your life agrees with you on that. Because, there's a lot of cases where the offender did not agree with that.

If you feel good with having only 6 shots and a reload, then I have nothing against it. But, to tell others that they don't "need" a self loader with a spare magazine is an error, unless you have a crystal ball that let's you see the future and it told you so, especially when an ordinary citizen firing more than 6 rounds in legetimate self defense already happened. Are you then going to tell people and lawmakers that "Hey, since 1~2 shots from a revolver is all it takes, there is no legetimate need for people to have rifles and shotguns for defense purpose, especially ones with over 6 round capacity."?

I really don't have anything against people carrying 6 shot revolver, even without a reload. I don't think they're negligent in only carrying 6 rounds, and I do think what they carry gives them option to defend themselves "most" of the time. What I object to is people telling me I don't "need" to have more when I want to be better prepared, especially when there are cases that proved otherwise. Let me decide what I need.

Besides, if I can carry a self loader and a spare mag more comfortably than a revolver and a speed loader, then how can having more rounds be bad? Having 80 rounds does not mean I have to use all of them, not that I actually carry it.

If you like revolvers, and shoot well with it, fine. It you are good with it, and want to carry it for self defense, fine. But, don't say having less round is not a disadvantage, and having more is an overkill, both of which is plain wrong.
 
TestPilot - you're the one poo-pooing on the revolver. Nowhere have I said 15 rounds on hand is bad. I'm a 9mm lover.

Again - if there's going to be a situation where you're attacked by fifty opponents, a single Glock-load isn't going to take down more than a few of them. If things are that impossibly bad that you'll die if you are limited to 5-8 shots between reloads, then you're an idiot for not finding cover or an avenue of retreat, going someplace where swarms of psychopaths are on patrol (at least without a Hummer and a Ma-Deuce), or you need to call in a bloody airstrike, not reload your handgun!
 
...Again - if there's going to be a situation where you're attacked by fifty opponents, a single Glock-load isn't going to take down more than a few of them. If things are that impossibly bad that you'll die if you are limited to 5-8 shots between reloads, ....
You don't need 50 opponents for that. Even 1~2 opponents can suffice. Besides, if you think, by your own admission, a single Glock can't take more than a "few" opponent's, what makes you think 6 shot will suffice?

...then you're an idiot for not finding cover or an avenue of retreat, going someplace where swarms of psychopaths are on patrol (at least without a Hummer and a Ma-Deuce), or you need to call in a bloody airstrike, not reload your handgun! ...

What part of my post lead you to believe that I would not seek cover or path for retreat?

TestPilot - you're the one poo-pooing on the revolver.
Do I think revolver is an effective defense weapon? Yes. Do I think revolver's 6 shot capacity is a disadvantage? Yes. Do I think revolvers have some other disadvantages? Yes. It was all legetimate concerns. If you want to call that poo-pooing, be my guest.
 
Having 15 round do not mean you have to use all of them, but how can having it be bad?

I don't think any of us here are saying that having 15 rounds is a bad thing. All else being equal, having more ammo is a plus. But there so many other factors that must be taken into consideration, of course. So what is bad is selecting a gun only for it's ammo capacity. A gun is like a pair of shoes. It must be fit to the individual user. What works for me won't necessarily work for you and vice versa.

So some of us just shoot revolvers better, and therefore, we feel we are better served by them. It's as simple as that. So going back to the OP, I would say:

1. A revolver IS a practical defensive weapon, so long as you are trained/confident/proficient in it's use.

2. A semi automatic IS a practical defensive weapon, so long as you are trained/confident/proficient in it's use.

BTW, #1 includes both DA and SA revolvers. Few people are proficient with a SA these days, but from I've seen with my own eyes, those that are should NOT be messed with :D .

It has a heavily doctored trigger with about a one pound pull, and Miculek was using very light target loads that would be pretty much worthless in a self-defense situation.

Let's see ol' Jerry shoot that fast and accurate using a stock production S&W 686 off a dealer's shelf, with an 8 to 9 pound trigger pull and firing full .357 magnum defensive loads.

Actually, Miculek is on record stating that his guns have a 6 to 8 lb pull (or thereabouts, I'd have to break out my Ultimate Advanced Revolver DVD for the exact number). Sub 5 lbs, it aint. The actual pull length is unchanged as well.

And I wouldn't call such a trigger "heavily doctored". I reserve that description for Glocks and 1911s that have been "heavily butchered" and will fire a round if you pop a fart off within 10 paces of one :eek: . A 6 to 8 lb pull is very much in the realm of possibility for a competent gunsmith without the need for replacing any internal parts. Simple smoothing and polishing of all the contact surfaces (particularly the rebound slide/side plate interface) are all that is really required. And the same treatment can be done to a revolver that is used for more "serious purposes" without sacrifacing a bit of reliability. What you basically wind up with is a revolver with the trigger quality of pre-war Smiths and Colts. An oh my, what fine slick shooting guns those were.

And I would venture that Miculek's times would drop a bit with a totally stock (non-tuned) 686, but I sure wouldn't care to venture down range to find out. Call me crazy, but I still think he'd kick my butt :eek:. Jerry is a skilled shooter, so I imagine he can make the most out of whatever tools he is handed in such a way that he'd still embarrass most of us. Care to challenge Lance Armstrong to an endurance race on identical Wallie World special 10-speeds? :)

On the other hand, Ed McGivern used a stock S&W for his shooting feats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_McGivern.

Auto's make it much easier for the average individual (and lets face it, I'm sure most of us are) to put lots of rounds down range more quickly while still maintaining accuracy compared to the same average individual with a revolver.

Plenty of us average people still can shoot a revolver more accurately at the same or better speed than an auto. We each have our own shooting rhythm/pace, and for myself and others that rhythm seems to better match with the wheel gun.

From a self defense standpoint though, I feel that comfort is a major factor and whatever firearm you feel most comfortable with is probably better in that aspect as you won't have to waste any time/effort operating the controls, adjusting your grip, etc. In a self defense situation I would no more wish a revolver on myself than an 'auto on a revolver guy so don't get me wrong.

Amen to that! Autos work for you, wheelies for me. As most of us are gun nuts, I think (well, hope) we can all respect that!

---

To someone earlier who mentioned revolver jams, yes, it can happen. Humans aren't perfect, so anything humans create is not going to be perfect either. Jamming in a revolver refers to the cylinder stopping it's rotation. This can be caused by a number of factors. Most of the time (not always), but it seems to either occur in:

- NIB guns that have too tight a cylinder gap or improperly fit hand. Every defensive gun should be tested for reliability, and this type of problem usually crops up in the first 50 rounds, so it becomes a PIA more than anything else.

- Guns that have been poorly maintained and neglected.

I test my revolvers for reliability when first purchased, then I clean/lube them after every range session. And the ones I rely on for self defense are usually cleaned more often. I do the same for my 1911 that I carry now-and-then. A well maintained and cared for revolver is highly unlikely (though not impossible) to sieze suddenly. Usually (in my personal experience) you can sense a stiffening in the pull long before a bind occurs, and can take appropriate corrective action before it becomes a liability.
 
If you feel good with having only 6 shots and a reload, then I have nothing against it. But, to tell others that they don't "need" a self loader with a spare magazine is an error, unless you have a crystal ball that let's you see the future and it told you so, especially when an ordinary citizen firing more than 6 rounds in legetimate self defense already happened. Are you then going to tell people and lawmakers that "Hey, since 1~2 shots from a revolver is all it takes, there is no legetimate need for people to have rifles and shotguns for defense purpose, especially ones with over 6 round capacity."?

I really don't have anything against people carrying 6 shot revolver, even without a reload. I don't think they're negligent in only carrying 6 rounds, and I do think what they carry gives them option to defend themselves "most" of the time. What I object to is people telling me I don't "need" to have more when I want to be better prepared, especially when there are cases that proved otherwise. Let me decide what I need.

As a revolver nut, I'd like to state that I agree 100% with your sentiments. I am certain the anti's would love to know that a significant number of pro-gunners don't see a "need" for more than 6 or 10 shots. :fire:

Now again, I go back to my post above. Don't pick a gun simply because it holds more rounds. Pick it because it fits YOU best.
 
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