Is there a gun you WON'T buy becasue of its history?

[jimmyraythomason]

Scoupe,I understand. It was just a thought. Trying to salvage something from the tragedy that was concetration camps.

 

[Cosmoline]

such as lets say a rifle you know belonged to a guard in a Nazi concentration camp.

Establishing that level of provenance on any milsurp is extremely difficult if not impossible. If you have a clear written attestation from the GI who actually took it from the guard, that would be one way. But that's pretty rare. You can narrow down some of the Finns to a Civil Guard district and even call the former owners of the Schmidt-Rubins, but those are small nations that kept good records and didn't exactly have a lot of atrocities. The best you can usually do are capture marks or particular property stamps. I'm not aware of any concentration camp guard marks, but if you COULD establish that level of provenance with a particular firearm it would be a real museum piece and well worth preserving.

The same holds true with places I live, I could never live in a house or apartment if a suicide or murder took place there.

There's really no way of knowing either in most cases. I had an old Spanish pistol with rust patterns in the shape of blood splash, as if from a very close head shot. But really who cares? It's just a pistol and if the guy shot himself with it that's his problem, not mine. Maybe he had good reason to.

If you live in an older house it's sometimes interesting to take one of those lights around that shows blood marks even through paint. OTOH maybe that's not such a good idea ;-)

 

[Coyote3855]

Quote:
I wont buy older revolvers because of the empty chamber under the hammer rule. I would never own a snub nose pistol because I like to be able to hit targets that are far away.

Could you elaborate? I understand that some people used to (Still do) carry with an empty chamber under the hammer, but other then within a given agency I never knew it was a rule. I carry with all chambers loaded.

I think he's referring to Colt/Colt Clone/early Ruger Single Actions that should be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Later Rugers (Blackhawks and Vaqueros old and new) have a transfer bar under the hammer and can safely be carried with six beans in the wheel. Don't know that it was ever a "rule," just a damn good idea.

 

[Acera]

Now a lot of you are sounding just like the anit's!!

That gun is bad...............

That gun is product of evil..............





Come on, we use the phrases like "it is just a tool, how you use it depends on the user" to say guns aren't bad.


I have no issues with someone not wanting to be associated with a particular inanimate object. I find it amusing that staunch gun rights advocates will sometimes preach the same line of crud as the opposition. LOL

 

[CWL]

Are you afraid they're haunted? Or what precisely?
What if you pick up an old milsurp weapon...how are you going to know what it was used for? What if you have one that was used for an atrocity but you don't know it? Do you just avoid all surplus weapons?

Did I write that? No. Am I telling you what to do? No.

I would buy the pistol that A. Hitler shot himself with, or the pistol used to assassinate ArchDuke Ferdinand to start WWI if I could. I'd love to own Audie Murphy's Garand -and he killed dozens of enemies with his rifle. These are items of historical significance. I currently own weapons picked-up in the field of battle, either from dead or surrendered enemy.

I only referred to weapons used for atrocities. Historically, countries like German, Japan and all sides fighting in former Yugoslavia and in SE Asia had specialized units that performed mass murder. These guys were quite proud of their actions and meticulously recorded their deeds, and oftentimes their weapons had unit markings to identify them.

The weapons of these units were not used with honor, nor were they used in war, I have no interest in them.

 

[Gryffydd]

Did I write that? No. Am I telling you what to do? No.

Did I say you wrote that? No.
So...you like milsurp, but won't own any German or Japanese etc. weapons due to the possibility that they were used in an atrocity? Or you avoid only the ones you are able to determine were used in such a way?

 

[jimmyraythomason]

The assasination of Archduke Ferdinand started WWI not WWII. Just sayin'.

 

[CWL]

So...you like milsurp, but won't own any German or Japanese etc. weapons due to the possibility that they were used in an atrocity? Or you avoid only the ones you are able to determine were used in such a way?

You still don't seem to understand more than what you want to. Did I write "possibility"?

Certain weapons have unit markings on them, these are the ones I have no interest in.

Look up Einsatzgruppen, EinsatzKommando, or SS-Totenkopfverbände. These guys weren't warriors, they let others fight and die on the battlefields while they spent WWII behind the lines committing genocide and mass murder. Why would I want something only used for dishonor? They would be as horrific to own as a death camp oven to me.

As I've already written, I have personally been to atrocity sites, several under active investigation. I have been brought to a tree where ~2,000 babies had their brains bashed-out and dumped, and their only crime was because their parents were suspected of treasonous beliefs. It has been mostly cleared of bones and clothing scraps now, and the site looks very peaceful and quiet -would you want to have a picnic under that tree?

 

[CWL]

The assasination of Archduke Ferdinand started WWI not WWII. Just sayin'.

Whoops! Thanks for the assist. I've got to proof-read more.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

How about a Japanese officer's sword? Those were used in combat but beheading pows and chinese(among others) civilians was their primary fuction.

 

[61chalk]

I wouldn't own any gun that had killed someone I loved. Is that putting emotion
into a object, or a tool....?...probably, but I don't believe emotion is a bad thing.
I just can't see telling someone that the gun I own killed my Dad, or best friend..it wouldn't matter what brand or kind it was or what war it was in. But if it had been in that crime, most likely that cops hopefully would have it an destroy it, although one local cop didn't destroy a gun used in murder, stole it, sold it to his best friend, whose son got it an killed a cop......

 

[sniper5]

As long as it's obtained through legal channels-no.

 

[travellingJeff]

I still don't understand this chain of idiocy here. Certain people are just emotionally blinded by the mention of the "Holocaust" and have no desire to discuss anything related to it rationally.

That said, if the weapon functioned well, I wouldn't care it's origin, manufacture or history.

OP - Are you a Jew? I only ask because I own weapons that were used against "my people" and have no problem with it. I am blend of German, Irish and Italian. In WWII both grandfathers fought, one in North Africa and one in Europe. I've no problems with possessing a Mauser, nor a Garand, nor a Mosin-Nagant. The odds exist that the Mauser, and certainly my grandfathers bring-back Luger from a "liberated" SS officer, were used to kill some Allied trooper at some point in time. The Garands I own could have been used to kill distant relatives on my German or Italian side. I have no ill will towards any of these implements simply because of the action of an individual possessing them decades ago.

It's just a machine, no more, no less.

 

[doc2rn]

I wouldnt buy:
Phoenix Arms
Jennings
Raven
Pretty much any stamped gun and/or a
TAURUS! They got the 3 strikes with a Titanium .357 cylinder crack, 9mm they wouldnt repair, and a .17 instant back up that was at repair more often than I had it in my posession (had it 9 days in 2 yrs).

 

[CWL]

How about a Japanese officer's sword? Those were used in combat but beheading pows and chinese(among others) civilians was their primary fuction.

I have one, supposedly picked-up on Okinawa (memorabilia auction). Besides, by the time Americans were picking-up Japanese souvenirs, most of the Japanese units responsible for atrocities had been destroyed, or were posted in China & SE Asia.

However, I wouldn't consider a rifle or bayonet issued to the Japanese Kwantung Army. They used captured soldiers for live bayonet practice, killed prisoners & civilians for sport and buried people alive by the hundreds of thousands.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi NWilliams,

The only time wouldn't want a gun is if I knew it was used in a suicide. I have a real issue with suicide and wouldn't want a gun associated with such an event. The same holds true with places I live, I could never live in a house or apartment if a suicide or murder took place there.

I'm curious, over in White County there is an old building where a man hanged himself in the 40's. Said building is now used to store & sort potatoes for market. Would you have problems eating the potatoes knowing that bit of history? In Cass County there is a barn where a county sheriff was shot to death in the 30's. Would you have problems eating beef from the cattle that live in that barn now?

Selena

 

[KenWP]

Freind of mine is a city of Calgary policeman and he used to get a lot of guns when he was the firearms officer that he bought off widows and guys that had beat a charge and figured they should get rid of their guns before they got in more trouble. He sold me a 22 revolver once that turned out to be used in a armed robbery and he tried to see me a Model 94 30-30 one night. The price was right untill he said he bought it off a widow and it had only fired 1 shot. I put it down and told him no deal on that one. Just didn't feel right to buy it after that.

 

[Gryffydd]

would you want to have a picnic under that tree?

I sure wouldn't make a special trip to have a picnic under that tree.
If I were to have a picnic under that tree without knowing its history, would I be in any way harmed? I'm sure you can find a whole lot of places where at some point in earth's history atrocities have happened.
That's my yardstick. If I were to not know the special circumstances of a place/weapon, would I be harmed by owning it? If not, then I don't worry about it. If I eat a berry in the woods that I don't know is poisonous, it'll still make me sick. If I live in an apartment or have a picnic under a tree and I have no idea something bad happened there, I won't be affected in any way.

But that's just me. I'm not saying that's the way anybody else should be. But then I also try to avoid beliefs and ideas if I can't explain them fully without getting upset and defensive.

 

[Erik M]

I have a a cousin that rebuilds near-totaled automobiles purchased through insurance companies and sells them at a decent mark. He is also the go-to flatbed guy for local law enforcement to clean up wrecks. He sells rebuilt cars in which people 'diddt make it' for lack of a better phrase. Hes sold several and just tells the people that they were bought at auction and he dosent know the history.


I think not owning a gun based on what another individual did with it is attatching emotions to an inadimate object. I guess its karma or some such nonsense.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Scoupe,

I'm trying to imagine what that benign and peaceful role would be, but I won't deny that it is a possiblity. It certainly wasn't fulfilling that role in my gun safe however, and I'm probably not going to open a holocaust museum/memorial anytime soon.

While I understand on an emotional level, I can't help but believe having the words "Never Again" engraved on the weapon would make it a powerful symbol. One of the old timey TV shows my Dad watches reruns of (Twilight Zone) had an episode where the commandant of Dachau returned to the camp. At the end of that episode one of the actors asked 'Why does it still stand?' (Meaning the camp) Mr Sterlings' monologue after pointed out that we need for the Dachaus and the Baden Badens and Auschwitzes to always remain as a stark reminder of how evil an out of control society can be.

As a passing thought, I wonder how many Chinese import rifles are made by Red Army prisoners. Something to think about when you admire that SKS?

 

[AKElroy]

I would not buy anything stolen or broken. Other than that, I find history, even negative history, to be a point of interest. Speculation about the battles an issued weapon may have seen is part of what drives my desire for milsurp purchases, even rifles clearly issued to the bad guys.

 

[tju1973]

Yeah-- a good friend and coworker was selling a Glock 22 for $250 that his son used to commit suicide with once it was released by the PD-- it was a good gun, but I knew his son since he was a kid, and the death hit me hard. The gun was a good one, and would buy one any other time at that price-- but I just couldn't bring myself to buy that one. Another coworker's brother has a pawn (an ethical one) shop-- we contacted him, and he bought the Glock off my friend for $450 (the pistol was practically new)- -and the money all went to my friends grandson....

 

[CWL]

But that's just me. I'm not saying that's the way anybody else should be. But then I also try to avoid beliefs and ideas if I can't explain them fully without getting upset and defensive.

I think we can agree that each is welcome to their opinions. I have my belief system and I'm not trying to ram it down anybody else's throat. My philosophy is based on personal experiences that I've been fortunate enough (or unfortunate) to have had the time and means to see. I know what I would and would not do and why.

This is just an internet discussion, we've been asked to share opinions.

 

[gun addict]

i grew up in China and seen far too many sites of Japanese atrocities, so nope, i will never have an Arisaka in my house depite the fact that they are good rifles

 

[Ruggles]

I am with you on this CWL, no desire at all to own and preserve a weapons used to kill American soldiers in any war. I would not own a firearm used in a concentration camp either.

Just a personal choice really.