Is there a maximum legal length for pistol barrels?
- Thread starter 264killer
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steveno
Member
you can have any length of barrel you want on a handgun.
Bobarino
member
someone better tell Uberti that then.
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/revolver_carbine_and_buntline.php
18" barrel.
you can have as long a barrel as you want on a pistol. just don't put a stock on it and you're hunky dory.
Bobby
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/revolver_carbine_and_buntline.php
18" barrel.
you can have as long a barrel as you want on a pistol. just don't put a stock on it and you're hunky dory.
Bobby
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Funny thing about that!
-Sam
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Ooooh, today is not your day!
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you Contender/Encore guys should read this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=477943
It seems that, notwithstanding the Supreme Court decision which appeared to decide that T/Cs could be configured in both rifle and pistol form interchangeably, the BATFE holds that that only applied to a rare few sets that came from the factory with both pistol and rifle parts. According to the letter quoted in this thread, they are continuing to view a T/C as either one or the other, and swapping parts to change that configuration will be illegal. (i.e.: Once a pistol has been made into a rifle, it IS a rifle in perpetuity and converting it back would create an illegal SBR.)
The relevant quote:
In other words, you have to apply to manufacture a Title II (or "NFA Regulated") Short Barreled Rifle and pay the $200 tax. And your pistol (in whatever configuration, including bone stock) is now in a completely different class of weapons, subject to most of the same rules as machine guns -- and would be illegal to own in any configuration in states that prohibit those kind of Title II firearms!
This has broad (and very bad) implications for owners of MecTech carbine kits for 1911s and Glocks, too.
Stupid, indeed. But be careful. They are serious and the (next) test case could be you.
-Sam
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TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Sam is correct. Pistol to rifle is a one way trip for the moment.
It's ridiculous, but that's ATF's position on it for now.
It's ridiculous, but that's ATF's position on it for now.
RevolvingGarbage
Member
I cant belive that a case based on infringing on one of these laws going to court would end it anything but a dismissal and the law being found totally unfounded. Can they really argue that putting a stock on a handgun turns it into some kind of killing machine? Or that being able to convert a single shot hunting rifle into a single shot hunting pistol should be illegal?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Oh, it is awful news for a LOT of folks. For one, we have a government agency enforcing a position of the law that the Supreme Court has ruled AGAINST about as specifically as they possibly could have. If that's not a flagrant flout of the system of checks and balances, I can't imagine one.
Second, and on a more "human" scale, how many Contender and Encore owners are there? How many of them do you think are aware of this? How many of them this year, or this month -- heck TOMORROW -- will go out to the range and commit a Federal felony?
Will they be arrested, charged, tried, and convicted? For the most part, no -- probably not. This may fall into the category of BATFE decisions or policies that they will not actively pursue because, if their victim has the money (or the NRA supports them) and chooses to fight, the ATF will lose and be forced to reverse their position. But they will hold this over us in perpetuity, in a twisted kind of clemency.
It may be a safe bet that you'll never be hassled, but you will have committed a felony unless you concede to not use the gun to its full capability, in the way it was intended to be used.
It is a great wrong. But chances are it will stand unchallenged for a long time.
-Sam
Second, and on a more "human" scale, how many Contender and Encore owners are there? How many of them do you think are aware of this? How many of them this year, or this month -- heck TOMORROW -- will go out to the range and commit a Federal felony?
Will they be arrested, charged, tried, and convicted? For the most part, no -- probably not. This may fall into the category of BATFE decisions or policies that they will not actively pursue because, if their victim has the money (or the NRA supports them) and chooses to fight, the ATF will lose and be forced to reverse their position. But they will hold this over us in perpetuity, in a twisted kind of clemency.
It may be a safe bet that you'll never be hassled, but you will have committed a felony unless you concede to not use the gun to its full capability, in the way it was intended to be used.
It is a great wrong. But chances are it will stand unchallenged for a long time.
-Sam
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
You are probably right, but it's going to cost someone a lot of money and time to find out.
I don't want to be that person and I suspect you don't either.
So, for all practical purposes whatever ATF says, goes.
I guess its good that I have two encore frames. One original purchased as a rifle. The other purchased as a handgun. What I meant is that a rifle has to have a 16" barrel or greater not to be considered sawed off. I have heard that it's 18" for a shotgun.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
That is correct. 16 inches for rifle, 18 for shotgun.
More genius gun laws.......
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Remember, it already has. The case (United States v. Thompson/Center Arms) made it all the way to the Supreme Court in 1992. They ruled in favor of T/C. Told the BATFE to stuff it. But the ATF simply reinterpreted their decision to allow them to continue to enforce it their way -- in all but a very few cases.
The problem is that they don't have to argue the "killing machine" angle. Converting a rifle into a pistol is illegal, clearly stated in the National Firearms Act of 1934. They don't have to prove anything except that you broke the law.
T/C has operated in a kind of odd grey area forever. Frankly, I'm not surprised that it took a Supreme Court decision to open some legal breathing room in the NFA to allow Encores and Contenders to be used as intended.
I am APPALLED that the ATF would completely disregard that decision. Continuing enforcement of this rule makes it all too apparent that they are not a neutral enforcement agency without an agenda -- but an enemy and a threat.
-Sam
gyvel
Member
I posted this quandry on another forum site, but never did get a straight answer.
Hypothetical situation: You have purchased (from any one of several sources) a 16" barrel/shoulder stock/mainspring housing set for a 1911 .45 pistol.
You install said set on your 1911, thus converting it to a "legal carbine."
Once one has done that, are you forever doomed to keep it in that configuration, or can you remove the parts (barrel, stock and slotted housing) and have a 1911 pistol again?
If I understand the tone of that regulation, you're stuck with the carbine unless you want to apply to make a "short barreled rifle" out of it.
(These were sold in the '80s as "Lebanese shoulder stock sets" but more recent offerings such as those sold by Sportsman's Guide or SARCO have dropped that nomenclature.)
Hypothetical situation: You have purchased (from any one of several sources) a 16" barrel/shoulder stock/mainspring housing set for a 1911 .45 pistol.
You install said set on your 1911, thus converting it to a "legal carbine."
Once one has done that, are you forever doomed to keep it in that configuration, or can you remove the parts (barrel, stock and slotted housing) and have a 1911 pistol again?
If I understand the tone of that regulation, you're stuck with the carbine unless you want to apply to make a "short barreled rifle" out of it.
(These were sold in the '80s as "Lebanese shoulder stock sets" but more recent offerings such as those sold by Sportsman's Guide or SARCO have dropped that nomenclature.)
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Gyvel, that's exactly what the ATF's letter appears to say.
Once you've made the switch, you've irrevocably changed the firearm's status from a pistol to a rifle. The only option you have at that point is to file a Form 1 to "create" a SBR out of it. Even if that SBR simply comprises all the original factory parts.
The worst irony is that the initial change, creating a rifle from a pistol carries no legal issues at all. It seems almost purpose-designed to trap completely law-abiding folks into committing a felony.
It does defy logic. But logic won't keep you out of jail, I suppose.
-Sam
Once you've made the switch, you've irrevocably changed the firearm's status from a pistol to a rifle. The only option you have at that point is to file a Form 1 to "create" a SBR out of it. Even if that SBR simply comprises all the original factory parts.
The worst irony is that the initial change, creating a rifle from a pistol carries no legal issues at all. It seems almost purpose-designed to trap completely law-abiding folks into committing a felony.
It does defy logic. But logic won't keep you out of jail, I suppose.
-Sam
husbandofaromanian
Member
My Contender Pistol, with it's two barrels (10.5" 22lr & 11.5" .223), is a very accurate long range firearm shot from a bench & off of a tripod. I chose the Contender because I shoot with silencers and no gas escapes from the action.
I often contemplated getting a second Contender in a rifle so that I could switch actions if one was to get damaged somehow. This thread has taught me not to do that. So I guess now my rifle will need to be an Encore so that a Leo cannot accuse me of switching back & forth.
I've already had an ATF agent all over me when I was selling muzzle loading derringers on the street (in a parking lot). He was not able to get me on anything. But, I could tell that if I had made the smallest mistake, he would have nailed me.
I often contemplated getting a second Contender in a rifle so that I could switch actions if one was to get damaged somehow. This thread has taught me not to do that. So I guess now my rifle will need to be an Encore so that a Leo cannot accuse me of switching back & forth.
I've already had an ATF agent all over me when I was selling muzzle loading derringers on the street (in a parking lot). He was not able to get me on anything. But, I could tell that if I had made the smallest mistake, he would have nailed me.
gyvel
Member
-Sam
What frosts me about this is that NONE of those selling these kits bother to tell the purchaser that little tidbit. Those would include Sportsman's Guide, Numrich (Gun Parts), SARCO, etc.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
It boggles my mind that, in a 15 minute search of T/C's web site, including reading the entire manual for the G2 Contender Pistols and Rifles, T/C's entire commentary on all the legal issues of converting a rifle, to a shotgun, to a pistol is the following:
How about FEDERAL laws? Even ignoring the issue of the BATFE's current position on (ignoring) the SCOTUS decision in U.S. vs. T/C, you'd think they'd say SOMETHING about the importance of not installing a <16" barrel at the same time as a rifle stock, and maybe even say something about not creating an AOW by putting a shotgun barrel on a pistol frame.
It's like they want to avoid those issues so completely that they will not even alert their customers to the possibility that they could do something illegal without realizing it.
I mean, they go so far as to instruct you not to use the gun for illegal purposes (no kidding!) but not how to avoid creating an indisputably illegal configuration.
Not sure of the reasoning behind that. Might be worth an email to them to see if they'll explain it, and in what terms...
-Sam
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Ditto. This whole situation is stupid. And nothing from the manufacturer?
I guess I'll just have to break down and buy two frames, one pistol and one rifle. That would give me the versatility I want while staying legal. Would cost an additional $300, or thereabout ... only $100 more than going the NFA route, and no doubt far less hassle.
But then maybe the current interpretation boosts T/C's sales? Gotta have two frames? Hmmm. Still, they ought to note the legal situation, especially the preclusion of a SBR without appropriate application and tax.
Here's a question. If one DID go the NFA route to build a SBR from Encore parts, would one be able to retain the versatility of swapping barrels to achieve different calibers, or would the SBR designation apply only to a single frame-barrel combination? And I do mean a SBR--rifle stock with less than sixteen-inch barrel ... not simply converting a pistol to a rifle and back to a pistol again.
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Some info on that here:
http://quarterbore.com/library/pdf_files/shortbarreledriflefaq.pdf
When you fill out the Form 1, you can list all the calibers you might use. Or the primary ones you think you will use. Don't put "Multi" as the ATF has stopped approving Form 1s filled out like that.
It seems folks have no problem getting approval for barrel lengths listed as simply 'Less than 16"', so that would cover that.
-Sam
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