Is there such a caliber?

[JImbothefiveth]

Well, I'm sure you've heard of that law to ban 30-30, and any other calibre cabable of penetrating a level II vest.(I think that might include 17 HMR). So my question is: are there any deer-suitable rounds that will NOT penetrate a level II vest, when you include pistol rounds such as 10mm, 45 long colt. Or is it buckshot only if that happens?

 

[rangerruck]

I wonder if the old 8mm will penetrate a vest. or a 35 remington. or a m1 carbine, or heck a plain ol 762.39 russian, softpoint?

 

[Magnuumpwr]

A ban of that magnitude would constitute reverting to spotlighting with a 22.

 

[22-rimfire]

My understanding is that most centerfire rifle bullets will penetrate a vest. I'm no expert and I can not give references on my belief.

I have not heard of this proposed law. Is this a current law that is proposed?

 

[bcp]

Almost any high velocity pistol cartridge fired from a rifle will have a higher velocity that what the vest is rated for. One article on the Marlin Camp 45 (45 ACP) showed almost no gain in the rifle.

Level II
"9 mm FMJ, at ~1,175 fps
(~358 mps)

.357 JSP at ~ 1,395 fps
(~425 mps). "

From:
http://www.bulletproofme.com/


More good reading:
http://www.survivalblog.com/2006/02/letter_re_recommendations_on_b_1.html

 

[Byte]

Rangerruck,

Asbolutely!, don't know anything about the cartridge, probably, and yes; referring to the 4 cartridges you mentioned. Especially since they're using type II as the basis.

I shoot my 8mm Mauser at 1/4 plate steel and it chews right through. The shiny holes with the copper ring around them always catch my attention. My M1a shooting 147 grain Lithuanian (M80 ball) does the same with a very slightly smaller hole! Without being a reloader and not really understanding the data sheets describing load and bullet weights I'd estimate that the 8mm (7.92x57) is every bit the round that the 30-06 is. That's just my personal opinion having seen both rounds take down several large white tail each. But you know what they say about opinions! I'd still love a vintage WWII era scope to mount on my Mauser. I'd definately stake my ability to eat on it!

Byte

 

[Z-Michigan]

A Level II vest, although a common level, is not really all that strong. Pretty much any centerfire rifle round will go through, as would many handgun rounds considered suitable for deer hunting (.44 Magnum and more powerful). It is rated to stop the common defensive type rounds like 9mm Luger. I would expect it to stop .45 Colt loaded to the original level, but not the super Ruger loads.

In short, banning anything that goes through a Level II vest leaves you with some weaker handgun rounds, .22 rimfire (actually, not sure that .22 Magnum won't penetrate it), and birdshot/buckshot.

 

[TAB]

I can't think of any chambering that you would use on med sized game that would not go thru a level II vest.

I'm pretty sure even my 17 rem could do it.

 

[Bobarino]

don't worry, that bill, brought about by Sen Kennedy and his ilk is several years old and went down in flames. he is an idiot. while i certainly don't wish any sort of cancer on anyone (i'm a leukemia survivor) i certainly don't miss his antics in the senate. fear not, the .30-30 isn't going anywhere....

Bobby

 

[jughead2]

i know for a fact 45 acp in a rifle will penetrate cinder blocks that it will not from my handgun.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

don't worry, that bill, brought about by Sen Kennedy and his ilk is several years old and went down in flames

Sen. Kennedy first brought the bill as an amendment to the Protection in Lawful Commerce bill in 2004. This is also where he made his infamous speech about the terribly dangerous armor-piercing limo capabilities of .30-30. I always thought it was telling that the first thing that popped into Kennedy's mind was the fear it might pierce his armored limo. In any case, it got 34 votes in the Senate when he introduced it - which while short of passing, means about 1/3 of the Senators are more than willing to ban all centerfire rifle ammunition out of ignorance or deliberate design. This includes the current Democratic VP candidate.

Like most gun control bills, this one keeps popping up. Kennedy re-introduced the amendment in 2005 getting 31 votes (including the current Dem Presidential candidate as well).

As to the topic, the political aspects of this are more appropriate for another forum. However, the technical aspects are probably worth discussing just so every gun owner understands what 1/3 of the Senate and a current President/VP nominate wants to do with their rights.

 

[Colt46]

What about cast bullets?

I only ask, because a bullet maker got into some tax trouble and the feds tried to make it into a tactical entry type situation and used the reasoning that he was a known maker of 'cop' killer bullets.

 

[Art Eatman]

Colt46, 20 grains of 2400 behind a 169-grain lead gas-check bullet in a .30-'06 gives some 1,900 ft/sec. It's a nice low-recoil plinker load.

It will blow right on through a Level II vest.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Maybe a .357 magnum with very heavy bullets? How about a .357 case with .45 colt or 44 magnum softpoint bullets ? would muzzle loaders be affected?

 

[Bobarino]

Maybe a .357 magnum with very heavy bullets?

nope. heavier bullets generally mean lower velocity and less energy.

How about a .357 case with .45 colt or 44 magnum softpoint bullets ?

uh, what? i don't get it. .357 is just that. .357" in diameter. 44 mag is .429" diameter.

Bobby

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I was thinking a 357 magnum case necket out to accept those. My reason being is that the "Armour peircing bullets" in cartridges such as the 5.7x28 and the .223 cartridges often seem to have low weight bullets launched very fast, with a low area(actually less than .22 caliber for those two) and a penetrator such as steel, so heavier weight+ greater surface area+ soft lead bullets just might work. It is going to be tough, of course, to get the needed penetration for hunting without breaking a level two vest.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I'm pretty sure even my 17 rem could do it.

With ease. Velocity is a primary factor in bullets defeating sort armor (or polycarbonate glass {Lexan}), and the .17 Rem has plenty. Even the lowly .22 Hornet will defeat Level II/IIIa soft armor, as well as penetrating four 1/2" sheets of Lexan from 50 yards (I personally tested the Lexan).

I was thinking a 357 magnum case necket out to accept those.

There is no way you could make a rimmed case work firing bullets that are larger than it's body diameter. It could be done with a rimless case, but still presents a list of problems (starting with extraction from the front???) and is wholly impractical.

 

[ranger335v]

I suspect a .22 RF Mag with common full patch bullets, fired from a 6" handgun, will penetrate those vests.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Well, with the way the polls are going , I thought this needed to be discussed some more. Let's hear it!

 

[Atla]

Why bother trying to figure out a way around the ban?

As soon as this one is passed another one will follow.

I'm a firm believer of non-compliance.

 

[jbech123]

nope. heavier bullets generally mean lower velocity and less energy.

Velocity of course. But Less energy? really? Are you talking at the muzzle or downrange? There are many variables, not the least of which is bullet design(notably B.C.) However all things being equal, I always thought a heavier bullet would retain energy better than a light one. Hence the recent trend for AR's towards having twist rates to handle 70+ grain bullets.

 

[Art Eatman]

jbeck, kinetic energy is a function of the square of the velocity. Double the velocity, you get four times the kinetic energy. From high school physics: KE = 1/2 x mass x the square of the velocity.