Is there such a thing as an accurate powder dispenser?

[AZAndy]

I became frustrated with my Lee disk measure while trying to work up a .357 load with W231. I was getting a wide variance, like a half a grain. So I bought an auto-drum and while it wasn't quite as bad, it certainly isn't good-- I was trying for 6 grains and kept getting anything from 5.8-6.2, mostly 5.9 and 6.1, from the same exact setting. I put powder in the same case more than twenty times trying to get exactly 6, and ten rounds took me almost an hour. I know a tenth of a grain isn't a big hairy deal, but I wanted to chronograph it for reference so I needed the measure to be consistent. The process was making me somewhat grumpy.

If there's a powder measure that can do better, I'd like to hear about it!

The load did turn out okay, by the way-- average of 871fps with a 158 grain Speer JHP, from a 2 1/8" barrel, which is close to what I was looking for.

 

[Greg Mercurio]

It depends on how much accuracy you're looking for. 231 generally meters well, and I have no problem getting .1 gr variance with my old Bonanza measure. Many others should duplicate this with that powder. Different ball game with stick.

But really, how much variance did you see in your loads on the chronograph? Did you also load 20 more and compare these as-thrown to the first set for SD and extreme spread? With a 2-1/8 inch barrel I doubt the variance will be material. And you may not be able to see it in the target either.

 

[Reloadron]

This comes up from time to time.

Is there such a thing as an accurate powder dispenser?

I guess in part it depends on how you want to define accurate or the uncertainty of a powder measure or powder throw? I have a few old RCBS Uniflow powder throws and with the large drum typically throw charges +/- 0.1 grain which in most cases is adequate. The 4 Best Powder Measures for Reloading starts with the inexpensive Lee and works up to a few better measures. Personally I don't see the article working up to a "best". Eventually you can work up to the HARRELL POWDER MEASURES available from Sinclair. When it comes to quality and repeatability in a powder throw it would seem the less molded plastic and more machined parts the better the end product. You get what you pay for.

When loading match quality ammunition I would throw a slightly below desired charge and then use a powder trickler with my old Lyman M5 scale to finish the charge. I have recently been using a RCBS Chargemaster 1500 which seems to do quite well.

Ron

 

[AZAndy]

It depends on how much accuracy you're looking for. 231 generally meters well, and I have no problem getting .1 gr variance with my old Bonanza measure. Many others should duplicate this with that powder. Different ball game with stick.

But really, how much variance did you see in your loads on the chronograph? Did you also load 20 more and compare these as-thrown to the first set for SD and extreme spread? With a 2-1/8 inch barrel I doubt the variance will be material. And you may not be able to see it in the target either.

I didn't load 20, just five each 3" barrel and 2 1/8" barrel to see what ballpark I was in. I'll do a box of 50 tomorrow morning without weighing every single charge (I usually check one in ten when I get rolling) and check those. The variance in my quick-and-dirty test was 859-880 from a 3" (SP-101), and 849-897 from the snubbie (SW 640). I was looking for a light target load at 900fps or a little less, so I think I've got what I wanted.

I'm glad to hear that 231 isn't considered a problem powder. I haven't used it much and don't know it very well.

 

[AZAndy]

This comes up from time to time.

Is there such a thing as an accurate powder dispenser?

I guess in part it depends on how you want to define accurate or the uncertainty of a powder measure or powder throw? I have a few old RCBS Uniflow powder throws and with the large drum typically throw charges +/- 0.1 grain which in most cases is adequate. The 4 Best Powder Measures for Reloading starts with the inexpensive Lee and works up to a few better measures. Personally I don't see the article working up to a "best". Eventually you can work up to the HARRELL POWDER MEASURES available from Sinclair. When it comes to quality and repeatability in a powder throw it would seem the less molded plastic and more machined parts the better the end product. You get what you pay for.

When loading match quality ammunition I would throw a slightly below desired charge and then use a powder trickler with my old Lyman M5 scale to finish the charge. I have recently been using a RCBS Chargemaster 1500 which seems to do quite well.

Ron

Thanks for the review article! That was interesting. If I were to step up to a higher-end model, would I also need to use that manufacturer's die with it? Or is a powder-through a universal thing? My only press is a Lee turret (soon to add a Load-Master, but not 'til next month) so I'm woefully ignorant about the wide world of presses and dies.

 

[thomas15]

The answer to your question is yes.

Ball powders are the easiest to measure. Keep in mind the old saying is that you get what you pay for. As handloaders we have no problems with the concept that $12.00 Harbor Freight Digital calipers are not as accurate as $150.00+ Starrett but talk about presses, dies, scales and powder measures and that thinking heads south every time.

Here is a partial list showing the cost for a number of powder measures. Generally speaking more money buys more steel and tighter tolerances which translates into better accuracy and consistency.

Lee
Auto-Drum $35.99
Pro-Auto-Disk $43.99
Amateur Auto-Disk $25.99
Perfect PM $25.99
Classic $71.99


Hornady
LNL $73.99
Quick Trickle $87.99
Bench Rest $126.99


RCBS
Uniflow $83.99
Competition $121.99-176.99
Quick Change $91.99
Little Dandy $37.99 (plus metering rotor)


Lyman
55 $89.99


Redding
Match 3BR $165.99-219.99
3 $142.99
10X $196.99
BR-30 $196.99
LR-1000 $219.99


Frankford Arsenal
Platinum $67.99


Dillon
RL550/XL650 $77.99
SDB $77.99
SL 900 $77.99
Super 1050 $82.95

 

[Reloadron]

I haven't used a powder through die in a good many years so rather than try to answer your question and maybe give you bum dope I'll hope someone else more familiar with the hardware comes along. My guess looking at some of my old stuff is yes but I don't want to say yes and be wrong.

<EDIT> Thank You thomas15! </EDIT>

Ron

 

[200Apples]

I know a tenth of a grain isn't a big hairy deal...

Certainly not when dropping near 50 grains for some rifle loads. But when you and I are dropping 6 to 8 grains for plinking loads but also desiring accuracy, .1 grain is a good percentage of the charge.

Take it from me! Hey, I've just rolled my first sixty! cartridges. Ever! ...and I started right away with the technique Ron described: throw light, then trickle up. I'm using an RCBS Uniflow (small drum) and Unique, 7.5 grains working up through 8 gr under a 215 gr lswc to mimic an older police load for the .41. I may tire of this technique eventually, but, for now, since I'm still new to the craft it seems I'm enjoying my journey.

 

[cfullgraf]

I

If there's a powder measure that can do better, I'd like to hear about it!

The technique used in operating the powder measure is important to getting consistent results.

Do it the same way every time.

Changes in how you cycle the measure will affect how the cavity fills. More vibration, less vibration, changes in speed, and so forth can have an affect.

Also, I prefer to have a powder baffle in the measure. Make sure when installed, the holes in the baffle are not directly over the metering cavity. The baffle keeps the weight of the powder column above the metering cavity more consistent.

But, some folks have good luck without using a baffle.

 

[Cheesemaker]

I have Redding's 10x and BR-30. I used to have a Lee (something or other). The Reddings work as good as can be hoped for. Still not as accurate as a drop/trickle up on a scale (got a RCBS Chargemaster for that).

1/10th of a grain on the Reddings? - doable if I am consistent with the throws. Consistency is important!

 

[PO2Hammer]

Certainly not when dropping near 50 grains for some rifle loads. But when you and I are dropping 6 to 8 grains for plinking loads but also desiring accuracy, .1 grain is a good percentage of the charge.

.1 grain error in a 6 grain charge is not a relevant factor in .357 accuracy out to 50 yards IME.

+/- .1 grain is what my Redding 10X is capable of delivering with W231 and similar powders. With Unique it's +/- .2 grains, but even then no difference compared to weighed charges at 50 yards with my scoped revolver.

Bullet consistency does more for me than measuring powder charges.

 

[200Apples]

.1 grain error in a 6 grain charge is not a relevant factor in .357 accuracy out to 50 yards IME.

Good to know. Thank you. Perhaps I was thinking of a better potential for grouping consistency when powder charges are nearly identical? Who knows. Again, I'm new to this.

I also am somewhat relieved to learn that you see little to no difference in accuracy using Unique when charges may vary up to your +/- .2 gr. Thanks again.

Finally, when you speak of bullet consistency I assume you're referring to bullet weight more than any other factor.

 

[entropy]

In my opinion, no, which is why I don't use one, nor a progressive press, I trust neither. That is my own opinion, many others use both and love them.

 

[forestswin]

Don't forget your scale most likely has a plus or minus 0.1 grain tolerance that could go either way. Maybe your powder measure is doing okay.

Check weights for the scale are a good investment. It's nice to just know.

 

[mdi]

At least 75% of accuracy from powder measures is from user accuracy/consistency. My "el cheapo" Lee PPM will hold less than .1 grain with W231. My C-H is just a hair more with a bit less than .2 grain variation. But I have been using these drum type powder measures for quite a while, 6 years for the C-H 502 and I got my first Lee PPM in '75. I have developed a method that I repeat as nearly the same as possible, the same process every time. Same lever throw, same lever throw speed, same "bump" (or not to bump) at the end of the throw, keeping the hopper full, and any other technique/use I do when I operate the powder measure. Consistency on my part gives consistent charges from my measures...

 

[RecoilRob]

The Hornady powder measure should be able to easily meter 231 to .1 grain every time. 231 is one of the best metering powders on the market though some have problems with it leaking out of their measures from what I've read. The Hornady is tight and leaks not a grain...but throws them the same every time.

Of course...nothing is perfect and that same Hornady measure that's perfect with 231 will throw a short charge now and then with Unique. It's not such a big deal if you check every one before seating the bullet but it just isn't as consistent as 231 so you can't trust it the same way.

Using extruded IMR type powders doesn't work well for me through the Hornady as it takes too much effort to cut a few grains that get stuck at the edge of the drum. I guess some measures will throw stick powders fine...but when using that type powder I use a dipper than trickle to the finished weight. Many different ways to skin the cat.

 

[BWB]

Keep in mind that the competitive benchrest guys at the top throw their charges from a measure. If doing otherwise would yield better results at the target, they would do whatever it takes.

 

[GarySTL]

Keep in mind that the competitive benchrest guys at the top throw their charges from a measure. If doing otherwise would yield better results at the target, they would do whatever it takes.

We had the international bench rest competition at my club last September and by my observation they were weighing every charge. RCBS Chargmasters were very popular. I did not watch every team, but the ones I saw were weighing.

 

[Reloadron]

We had the international bench rest competition at my club last September and by my observation they were weighing every charge. RCBS Chargmasters were very popular. I did not watch every team, but the ones I saw were weighing.

Originally Posted by BWB View Post
Keep in mind that the competitive benchrest guys at the top throw their charges from a measure. If doing otherwise would yield better results at the target, they would do whatever it takes.

This past summer I attended the Super Shoot of the Benchrest group. I am a regular member of Kebly's range and home to the annual super shoot in the benchrest community. While not a benchrest type myself I enjoy the community and love observing. Made a discovery sometime back. The benchrest guys I watch are shooting 100 and 200 yards maximum. If you scroll down in the link to the loading stations in the barn you will see countless Harrel powder throws or similar high end throws. These guys never use a scale and I never saw a scale. It was later I discovered other benchrest guys shooting long ranges, well exceeding the 200 yard limits of the super shoot. This group weighs their charges and they weigh each and every charge methodically. The guys shooting short distance just rely on a volumetric throw where the long range guys weigh their charges.

Gary, what distances were these guys shooting?

Ron

 

[GarySTL]

I spent most of my time with the South African and Aussie teams. They were shooting 200 yds at the time. The South Africans threw charges with the Chargmasters, dumped into the case then settled the charge by vibration with an electric toothbrush. I'm not a bench rest shooter myself but those guys are amazing.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I also am somewhat relieved to learn that you see little to no difference in accuracy using Unique when charges may vary up to your +/- .2 gr. Thanks again.

I consider myself an average pistol shot, so take this for what its worth. I certainly cannot tell any difference whatsoever in a plus or minus .2 grains in handgun rounds.

I have heard much more experienced guys than I say that it means more in bottlenecked rifle cartridges, even though it is a much smaller percentage of the total weight. I have not personally tested this.

 

[Mauser69]

I became frustrated with my Lee disk measure while trying to work up a .357 load with W231. I was getting a wide variance, like a half a grain. So I bought an auto-drum and while it wasn't quite as bad, it certainly isn't good-- I was trying for 6 grains and kept getting anything from 5.8-6.2, mostly 5.9 and 6.1, from the same exact setting. I put powder in the same case more than twenty times trying to get exactly 6, and ten rounds took me almost an hour.

Well, something is wrong. That powder is not hard to measure accurately, and the two measures you used will both do much better than you managed.

From here, I cannot tell you what is wrong, but maybe a few ideas. I would have guessed at a possible problem with the measure, but since you used two of them, that is unlikely, Really poor techniques by the operator are absolutely a possibility, especially since you loaded so few cases (I'm just guessing, but you sound like a possible newbie). Maybe it is your scale or an inability to use it well? Cheapo electronic toy? Low quality beam scale not cleaned properly? Breeze from a fan or window causing drift? Dirty internal cases that let powder stick inside when you THOUGHT you were dumping it all to weigh? Lots of things are possible, but do not jump to the damnation of the powder measure.

 

[Blue68f100]

I became frustrated with my Lee disk measure while trying to work up a .357 load with W231. I was getting a wide variance, like a half a grain. So I bought an auto-drum and while it wasn't quite as bad, it certainly isn't good-- I was trying for 6 grains and kept getting anything from 5.8-6.2, mostly 5.9 and 6.1, from the same exact setting. I put powder in the same case more than twenty times trying to get exactly 6, and ten rounds took me almost an hour. I know a tenth of a grain isn't a big hairy deal, but I wanted to chronograph it for reference so I needed the measure to be consistent. The process was making me somewhat grumpy.

If there's a powder measure that can do better, I'd like to hear about it!

The load did turn out okay, by the way-- average of 871fps with a 158 grain Speer JHP, from a 2 1/8" barrel, which is close to what I was looking for.

231 normally meters very well, <±0.1gr. I suspect you may have something else going on. Like did not properly clean the dispenser before use, static cling or did not settle the powder in the hopper before starting. With the drum rotary dispense make sure you have the Pistol rotor installed and not the Rifle.

 

[tcoz]

I just posted this on another thread..

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=10335497&postcount=46

 

[Walkalong]

The benchrest guys I watch are shooting 100 and 200 yards maximum. If you scroll down in the link to the loading stations in the barn you will see countless Harrel powder throws or similar high end throws. These guys never use a scale and I never saw a scale. It was later I discovered other benchrest guys shooting long ranges, well exceeding the 200 yard limits of the super shoot. This group weighs their charges and they weigh each and every charge methodically. The guys shooting short distance just rely on a volumetric throw where the long range guys weigh their charges.

This is my understanding as well. I know for a fact we never weighed charges when I was shooting 100 and 200 yard Benchrest.

+/- .1 or even a few +/- .2 Gr throws of W-231 won't matter in your load in .357 Mag until you try shooting at well over 100 yards.

That said, and as posted earlier, you can improve the spread by careful manipulation of the measure.

At longer ranges your ES is more important than the spread on throws. Of course, that can affect the ES.

But I don't think you have anything to worry about.