I agree with others here. Don't give up too early on the Lee auto drum. I have two and they are both very consistent, particularly with Hp-38/W231. Like, 8 out of ten dead on and the other two throws +/- 0.1 gn. They were that way right out of the box for me, but I have seen on here that others have had to do a bit of tweaking.
Is there such a thing as an accurate powder dispenser?
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GBExpat
Member
When loading what I refer to as Test Strings, do what I suspect most of the rest of us do; set you dispenser to drop light and then use your trickler to load the precise weight that you are seeking.
For general purpose reloading I have found the Lee AutoDrum to be exceptionally accurate with the few powders that I have used in it so far (BE-86, Bullseye, CFE-P, TiteGroup, Trailboss).
Ole Joe Clark
Member
The truth be known, +/- .1 grain is pretty good. All reloaders are crazy, myself included. We want to split hairs over things that don't matter. If you want the powder weight to vary less than one tenth of a grain, you are gonna spend more time weighing powder than shooting.
Like the question: How flat is flat? Or: how flat is good enough? That is for you to decide. I suggest a good reloading book to read and study, then get another one and read and study it. Then apply common sense.
Have a blessed day,
Leon
Like the question: How flat is flat? Or: how flat is good enough? That is for you to decide. I suggest a good reloading book to read and study, then get another one and read and study it. Then apply common sense.
Have a blessed day,
Leon
RecoilRob
Member
Speaking of technique....I've witnessed people doing it very wrong, and this caused some inaccuracy to creep in. What they were doing was leaving the measure sit in the 'dumped' position, then quickly snapping the lever up to fill then right back down to dump again. How long they paused at the 'fill' position made a LOT of difference in how much powder they were throwing. One guy got all defensive by saying that he'd practiced enough that he was doing it the same every time...but I countered by wondering why you'd even have the chance of changing the charge when you don't have to?
Easiest way (that I'm sure everyone is already doing...but just in case) is to leave the measure in the 'fill' position between cases, then flip up or down to 'dump' and let it smack a bit at the end to be sure that all the powder leaves the measure, them back to 'fill' as you reach for the next case. This 'should' give the powder plenty of time to fill the measure properly and consistently and is much, much better than expecting it to fill in that instant when you're using the wrong procedure.
Sorry if everyone already knew how to run the measures, but sometimes the simple things escape us particularly when starting into something with as much content as reloading ammo. Eliminate the variables you can when you can and you're just that much farther ahead.
Easiest way (that I'm sure everyone is already doing...but just in case) is to leave the measure in the 'fill' position between cases, then flip up or down to 'dump' and let it smack a bit at the end to be sure that all the powder leaves the measure, them back to 'fill' as you reach for the next case. This 'should' give the powder plenty of time to fill the measure properly and consistently and is much, much better than expecting it to fill in that instant when you're using the wrong procedure.
Sorry if everyone already knew how to run the measures, but sometimes the simple things escape us particularly when starting into something with as much content as reloading ammo. Eliminate the variables you can when you can and you're just that much farther ahead.
Cheesemaker
Member
RecoilRob elaborated better than I was saying about consistency - do the same thing, the same way, over and over again and the result should be pretty close each time....
Well, you won't get any argument from me as I prefer to leave my measure in the fill position between cases.
But, there are a number of folks that strongly feel leaving the measure in the dump position is the way to go.
I don't disagree with them either. As most folks are saying, it comes down to technique. I've worked with the measure leaving it in the dump position and get just as consistent results as leaving it in the fill position.
On the other hand, when loading a tray full of cases, I can get erratic charges with the measure left in the fill position if I charge cases too quickly.
There were other aspects of operating the powder measure leaving it in the dump position between cases that I did not prefer. So I returned to leaving the measure in the fill position between cases.
Again, it comes down to technique and understanding the limitations of the system.
Hondo 60
Member
If you're looking for a powder measure that'll give you 6grains, exactly, everytime.
The answer is no.
If you think +-.1 is accurate, then yes, you can find such measures.
I have 3, a Lee Pro Auto disc, a dillon & an RCBS.
But they also have their own favorite powders & favorite charge weights.
2400 sucks on the dillon, but measures beautifully on the Lee.
3 grains or more of Titegroup is great on the dillon, but I use 2.2 for .32S&W Long.
The dillon doesn't go that low & the Lee is VERY inconsistent.
The RBCS drops 2.2 very nicely.
The answer is no.
If you think +-.1 is accurate, then yes, you can find such measures.
I have 3, a Lee Pro Auto disc, a dillon & an RCBS.
But they also have their own favorite powders & favorite charge weights.
2400 sucks on the dillon, but measures beautifully on the Lee.
3 grains or more of Titegroup is great on the dillon, but I use 2.2 for .32S&W Long.
The dillon doesn't go that low & the Lee is VERY inconsistent.
The RBCS drops 2.2 very nicely.
I think it's easy to lose perspective on how much a +/-0.1 gr really is. That is +/-2% at 5.0gr. But is it a +/-2% difference in velocity? Not always.
I have noticed 0.1-0.2gr difference in charges due to changes in humidity (we can see a substantial change here in a day or two). Now this isn't something I was looking for, it just happened I noticed charge going .1-.2 heavy, adjusted for it, next day after the A/C had been running all day, it had dropped back. It was one of those moments where you go "hey, wait a minute, I just dialed this back yesterday"
I have noticed 0.1-0.2gr difference in charges due to changes in humidity (we can see a substantial change here in a day or two). Now this isn't something I was looking for, it just happened I noticed charge going .1-.2 heavy, adjusted for it, next day after the A/C had been running all day, it had dropped back. It was one of those moments where you go "hey, wait a minute, I just dialed this back yesterday"
Yep.
All my powder measures have micrometer adjusters on them and I record the setting used at each loading session.
The setting allows me to get back to a charge weight quickly the next time I load that cartridge but setting usually ends up being slightly different session to session.
Changes in humidity which results in changes in moisture content of the powder is the most likely culprit in my opinion.
All my powder measures have micrometer adjusters on them and I record the setting used at each loading session.
The setting allows me to get back to a charge weight quickly the next time I load that cartridge but setting usually ends up being slightly different session to session.
Changes in humidity which results in changes in moisture content of the powder is the most likely culprit in my opinion.
Chuck R.
Member
I currently use a couple Harrell's and 3 Dillons, have used Lyman & RCBS.
All depend on technique. The Harrell's are beautiful measures, finely machined, precise adjustments, but get careless and they'll also throw over/under charges.
Also after watching a few benchrest competitors, and chronographing a boatload of match loads, I don't sweat a couple .1's of a grain. I haven't seen it show up in chrono stats or on paper.
Chuck
All depend on technique. The Harrell's are beautiful measures, finely machined, precise adjustments, but get careless and they'll also throw over/under charges.
Also after watching a few benchrest competitors, and chronographing a boatload of match loads, I don't sweat a couple .1's of a grain. I haven't seen it show up in chrono stats or on paper.
Chuck
To the OP - I'd submit the notion that if 50-75fps difference were even noticeable by the average shooter - and that IS most of us - I'd start to fret over it. But IMHO it isn't. Especially shooting a snub nose type handgun.
I use Win 231/HP-38 exclusively in my pistol reloads, all done on a Lee Classic turret with Pro Disk. It is VERY consistent. Once I set it up and verify the powder charge with a cheap digital scale, I'm good to go and never think about it.
I also submit that were one to buy a box of factory ammo, from ANY manufacturer, and measure the OAL, then pull the bullets and weigh them, and dump the powder charge and weigh that...for lets say 20 rounds? The whole notion of trying to be NASA accurate/obsessive compulsive in reloading might just go out the window?
I am quite convinced that there IS such a thing a 'close enough' for my needs.
I use Win 231/HP-38 exclusively in my pistol reloads, all done on a Lee Classic turret with Pro Disk. It is VERY consistent. Once I set it up and verify the powder charge with a cheap digital scale, I'm good to go and never think about it.
I also submit that were one to buy a box of factory ammo, from ANY manufacturer, and measure the OAL, then pull the bullets and weigh them, and dump the powder charge and weigh that...for lets say 20 rounds? The whole notion of trying to be NASA accurate/obsessive compulsive in reloading might just go out the window?
I am quite convinced that there IS such a thing a 'close enough' for my needs.
dragon813gt
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If I want the same exact charge every time I will use a RCBS Chargemaster. Yes it's slower but that's the price to pay if you want the same charge every time.
Something is wrong if the PAD is not dropping the same charge of W231 every time. Mine will drop the same charge consistently. Downside is it leaks, especially w/ H110/W296. You have little adjustment of charge weight but I've found the ones it throws to be accurate.
I have two of the auto drums. First one leaked like a sieve and was all over the place w/ charge weights. I need to get around to using the second one so I can write a follow up report to my first one.
I also have a Lee PPM. It's good to +-.1 but leaks w/ fine powders. No one measure is going to be the best for every powder. If you want the same charge every time dump and trickle or buy one of the automated dispensers.
Something is wrong if the PAD is not dropping the same charge of W231 every time. Mine will drop the same charge consistently. Downside is it leaks, especially w/ H110/W296. You have little adjustment of charge weight but I've found the ones it throws to be accurate.
I have two of the auto drums. First one leaked like a sieve and was all over the place w/ charge weights. I need to get around to using the second one so I can write a follow up report to my first one.
I also have a Lee PPM. It's good to +-.1 but leaks w/ fine powders. No one measure is going to be the best for every powder. If you want the same charge every time dump and trickle or buy one of the automated dispensers.
Before I could afford an RCBS powder measure (which I eventually did acquire and use today), I used the charge bar from my 20 gauge Lee Load-All instead. With the appropriate bushing, it would consistently drop 20.3 grain charges of IMR-4198 that my RCBS scale never found to vary by even 1/10 of a grain. As a stand-in powder measure, it was easy to set up, highly accurate and repeatable.
After about 3,000 rounds across about eight years, abrasion from the powder did start to take it's toll on the plastic charge bar, but replacements are available from Midway or Lee for about $5.
If you're doing lots of rounds continually, then you probably need the durability of metal construction. If you're reloading as a hobby, plastic may be all you need. Had my Lee Load All survived the trip to Texas, I would probably still be using it for my .223 loads.
I've loaded a lot of 9mm rounds using a Lee auto-disk with ZIP powder, which is similar in many ways to 231 (though not the same powder).
Some stuff to check:
- Make sure that the screws holding the hopper to the dispenser are tightened down reasonably well.
- Make sure that the silicone wiper is in good shape and installed correctly.
- Make sure you've wiped the inside of the hopper with an anti-static sheet at some point in the not-too-distant past.
- Make sure you're manipulating the handle of the press in a consistent manner. How presses and powder dispensers cycle influences the way the powder settles into the space for the charge.
- Make sure you're actually getting charge variances of the size you think, and are not, as is common, simply seeing a scale have difficulty resolving all the way down to .1gr accurately.
Some stuff to check:
- Make sure that the screws holding the hopper to the dispenser are tightened down reasonably well.
- Make sure that the silicone wiper is in good shape and installed correctly.
- Make sure you've wiped the inside of the hopper with an anti-static sheet at some point in the not-too-distant past.
- Make sure you're manipulating the handle of the press in a consistent manner. How presses and powder dispensers cycle influences the way the powder settles into the space for the charge.
- Make sure you're actually getting charge variances of the size you think, and are not, as is common, simply seeing a scale have difficulty resolving all the way down to .1gr accurately.
Recoilrob wrote:
I don't think you have to apologize for repeating sound advice. There may be people reading the post that are new to the hobby and don't already know it and it helps keep the rest of us from becoming complacent.
Whether it was my RCBS measure or my Load All being used as a powder measure, whenever I moved the chamber into the "fill" position, I would always give it a gentle but sharp tap to help settle the powder.
If I actually had any coordination, I would say it became something of a "dance";
I don't think you have to apologize for repeating sound advice. There may be people reading the post that are new to the hobby and don't already know it and it helps keep the rest of us from becoming complacent.
Whether it was my RCBS measure or my Load All being used as a powder measure, whenever I moved the chamber into the "fill" position, I would always give it a gentle but sharp tap to help settle the powder.
If I actually had any coordination, I would say it became something of a "dance";
- move handle to fill position,
- pick up case,
- put powder funnel on case neck,
- tap powder measure,
- place case below downspout,
- move handle to load position,
- tap measure again,
- remove funnel,
- visually inspect that case has powder in it,
- put case back in loading block.
Cheesemaker
Member
It appears that super accuracy can be had:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=809337
Consistent throws within 6/100ths of a grain with a Lee. Read through the thread. He has "tuned" the dispenser. The thread is mostly about NG effects.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=809337
Consistent throws within 6/100ths of a grain with a Lee. Read through the thread. He has "tuned" the dispenser. The thread is mostly about NG effects.
tcoz
Member
Cheesemaker, IMO there's something weird about that entire thread.
Cheesemaker
Member
Agreed
adcoch1
Member
My experience with lee powder measures is to tune them up and run about 1/2 to a full pound of powder through them to kinda lube them up as the instructions state and then they drop accurate charges. I have a few auto disks and a ppm, both leak H110 but drop consistent charges. The ppm works really good for everything I've ran through it even though it feels like a cheap toy.
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Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk
thomas15
Member
same here and I'm all over that thread
I stopped using my scale that was accurate to .1 grain and went to the GemPro 250, accurate to .05. It was affordable, quick settling, and gave be a little better read of what was in the case. http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-gempro-250.html
I am a Hornady guy and always trickle up.
Don’t like the Hornady trickler. Too light unless you add weight to the bottom.
Still new at the craft, he more I chased accuracy, the more I have come to realize that in my world of less than benchrest shooting that real accuracy came more from tuning the bullet and load to the barrel and less from precise powder measuring.
I am a Hornady guy and always trickle up.
Don’t like the Hornady trickler. Too light unless you add weight to the bottom.
Still new at the craft, he more I chased accuracy, the more I have come to realize that in my world of less than benchrest shooting that real accuracy came more from tuning the bullet and load to the barrel and less from precise powder measuring.
This is how I weigh my charges to less than 10th grain:
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnVOoGd1bDU
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnVOoGd1bDU
Decades ago when I shot outdoor pistol, I became infatuated with a need for exact charge weights in .45 ACP loads; both commercial and arsenal match as well as reloads made on a Star progressive dumping 3.5 grains of Bullseye into cases we seated cast 185 SWC's into. So I measured a couple dozen thrown charges on the Star progressive as well as those in commercial and arsenal match ammo.
A half grain spread in charge weights was normal. The commercial SWC match ammo with such spreads shot around 2" 10-shot groups at 50 yards with rebuilt M1911's clamped in a Broadway machine rest. Arsenal match ammo with full loads under 230 FMJ's shot about 3 inches.
That ammo had more than a 10% spread in charge weights.
.22 long rifle pistol match ammo had the same spread in powder charges weighing about 1 grain. It shot under 1/2" at 50 yards in Hammerli free pistols as well as Hi Standard and S&W semiauto match pistols in the Broadway machine.
A half grain spread in charge weights was normal. The commercial SWC match ammo with such spreads shot around 2" 10-shot groups at 50 yards with rebuilt M1911's clamped in a Broadway machine rest. Arsenal match ammo with full loads under 230 FMJ's shot about 3 inches.
That ammo had more than a 10% spread in charge weights.
.22 long rifle pistol match ammo had the same spread in powder charges weighing about 1 grain. It shot under 1/2" at 50 yards in Hammerli free pistols as well as Hi Standard and S&W semiauto match pistols in the Broadway machine.
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I know where you're coming from Bart.
The real picky pistol loads were for my .32 Pardini target pistol. I found 1.6 grains of Bullseye did the trick for accuracy and reliable action.
These pistols are designed for one handed, open sight bullseye shooting, they could only take a full wadcutter (98gn) and, being straight blowback, if the charge varied much either way, they didn't cycle reliably or the slide would bottom out harshly.
The real picky pistol loads were for my .32 Pardini target pistol. I found 1.6 grains of Bullseye did the trick for accuracy and reliable action.
These pistols are designed for one handed, open sight bullseye shooting, they could only take a full wadcutter (98gn) and, being straight blowback, if the charge varied much either way, they didn't cycle reliably or the slide would bottom out harshly.
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