Is this legal to do? Mosin Nagant pistol.

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question is concerning the legality of making a 91/30 mosin nagant 7.62x54 into a pistol. Not a SBR. Simply making the stock have no butt end for shoulder usage but only a pistol grip from the orginal stock. Also having the barrel cut to 8-10" which would easily make it under the 16" rifle barrel limit.

Why you ask? Just to be different.

I see people making long range pistols with bolt actions in big calibers and short barrels. This gun is NO tack driver with its worn barrel so making a fun hi-powered pistol on a budget would be cool to me.

My question really is....is it legal to do since its not a SBR? it won't have the things that qualify to make it a rifle like it once was. I just would like to do it right and legal.

thanks for your help.
 
Not legal without the proper paperwork and tax stamp. It doesn't become a pistol - it becomes a weapon made from a rifle (ie, a SBR).
 
thats good to know now. thank you.

now to purchase a mosin nagant and put in for the $200 stamp for a SBR first? after its approved I then can do the work to the "rifle"? 6 months is a long wait!
 
Basically. You can put in the paperwork any time, you just can't cut the rifle down to less than 16" barrel/26" OAL before you get it back.

As far as functionality, I recommend leaving a functional stock on the Mosin no matter how short you cut it down, or getting an extra stock (modified to fit the short barrel) that you don't cut the butt off in order to shoot it - If there's not enough gun to keep ahold of when you shoot it, you're likely to break fingers, wrist or other body parts in recoil. My M44 is a handful, and it hasn't been modified at all - to the point that if it's not properly shouldered, it can and has broken collarbones (just not mine). Your pseudo "Obrez" is going to kick harder than one of those AOW 12ga super shorty shotguns.
 
Raildriver,big thanks!

I'll do the paperwork first and get the project on the way. I'll do more research on the rifled pistol,hand rifle or whatever it could be called.:)
 
Has to be SBR papered because it is made from something originally a long gun.

All the bolt action and long range pistols you see are legally distinct starting out as bare receivers or legally handguns even though they are closer to rifles than handguns in reality.


For example you could have two identical AR pistols side by side, and one could be a felony unregistered NFA item because it was made from an AR rifle, while the other one was made from a receiver.
Even though they have all the exact same parts and look identical they are legally quite different.


Ruger for example came out with the Charger pistol. It is a 10/22 without a stock that is legally a handgun. You can readily go purchase one and it is legally no different than any other handgun.
Yet if you made your own identical Charger pistol from a 10/22 it would be illegal without NFA paperwork.


So most long range pistols you see that are basically short versions of long guns without a stock were manufactured as handguns from the start.





Rail Driver said:
If there's not enough gun to keep ahold of when you shoot it, you're likely to break fingers, wrist or other body parts in recoil. My M44 is a handful, and it hasn't been modified at all - to the point that if it's not properly shouldered, it can and has broken collarbones (just not mine). Your pseudo "Obrez" is going to kick harder than one of those AOW 12ga super shorty shotguns.

Actually many such short barreled rifle calibers have less recoil than you would think. The reason is they are cartridges designed to be fired from a rifle, and so the powder is made to make the most of a certain minimum average barrel length.
(In our society for example with the NFA, cartridge manufacturers know that rifles are going to have a barrel at least 16" long, and many calibers average longer than that. So they will design pressure curves that need that much length, but generate more overall power. They know this when designing the cartridge too, determining case capacity to generate the intended operating pressure in a certain barrel length range.)
So in a really short barrel they don't generate the pressure curve they do in a rifle, and blow a lot of unburned powder out the muzzle in the form of a giant fireball.
So they are loud and create massive fireballs, but all the powder burning outside the barrel is not creating pressure, imparting velocity to the bullet, nor creating recoil energy.
Performance wise the result is also that many really short barreled firearms in rifle calibers actually generate less power than the same size firearm would if it was chambered in one of the big handgun calibers instead. As the handgun cartridges are designed to reach maximum pressure in a much shorter barrel, and so are on average more powerful until you get to a certain barrel length.
And being more efficient they also don't generate a blinding fireball out of a bunch of wasted powder.


That is not to say they are pleasant, just not as bad as they might be expected with a really short barrel. A A 7.62x54R with only half of its powder burned before the projectile exits the muzzle for example is going to generate a lot less recoil.
Efficient rifle powders are designed to burn up to a peak pressure, then generate so much more power than a handgun by maintaining near that pressure for awhile before they begin to fall. They generate a lot more power than a pistol powder that spikes to its intended pressure and quickly drop, but they need a long barrel to do it in and generate that long powerful pressure curve. Putting them in a short barrel means they likely don't even reach their intended operating pressure, never mind maintain somewhere near it for awhile as intended.



Here is a video of a guy shooting a Mosin pistol with 7 inch barrel without even much grip to hang on to and as you can see it is quite manageable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNFsUvh078I

Most of the powder is clearly being wasted minimizing recoil. If it was generating the power and recoil of a full size barrel it would be a lot harder to manage than that.

Now that said you could certainly develop some loads using pistol powders to operate within the SAAMI pressure limits of the cartridge that maximize velocity gain in the short barrel.
Those would generate both velocity and recoil that was closer to a reduced barrel length version of the full rifles, tailored to be efficient for the available barrel length. They would likewise be hard to manage and give the type of brutal recoil you are expecting.
 
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While we're on the subject, I am curious. A few months back classicarms was selling bare Mosin receivers. Could I make one into a 'obrez' without SBR paper work if I started with said reciever?
 
While we're on the subject, I am curious. A few months back classicarms was selling bare Mosin receivers. Could I make one into a 'obrez' without SBR paper work if I started with said reciever?

As I understand it, no. Those receivers were all built at rifles and stripped. You would be making a pistol from a long gun, even though you did not acquire it in its rifle configuration.
 
Once a barrel is fitted to a reciever, then it become's either a pistol or a rifle. So if a "new" reciever is fitted with a pistol barrel the gun is always a pistol.
 
Once a barrel is fitted to a reciever, then it become's either a pistol or a rifle. So if a "new" reciever is fitted with a pistol barrel the gun is always a pistol.

Well, no. There are three possibilities for a firearm being sold new: Handgun, Long Gun, and "Other Firearm."

Over 26" overall length, shoulder stock = long gun.
Under 26" overall length, no shoulder stock = handgun.
Over 26" overall length, no shoulder stock = "other." (Stripped receivers, belt-fed semi-autos, pistol grip-only shotguns, etc.)

The question of "once a ... always a..." has changed recently. The BATFE's interpretation of the NFA'34 used to be that once a rifled firearm had a buttstock installed, it was a rifle, now and forever. That meant that TC Contenders and such could not legally be changed back into a pistol once they'd been made into a rifle once! (Millions of owners did it anyway.) Last year the ATF reversed that opinion and now a pistol can be built into a rifle (>26" overall, >16" barrel) and then made a pistol again legally.

Rifles, that were originally produced as rifles, cannot be configured as anything BUT a rifle without a tax stamp.
 
Rifles, that were originally produced as rifles, cannot be configured as anything BUT a rifle without a tax stamp.

That is how I interpret the building of Mosin receivers, sold as stripped.

NFA law is interesting stuff. :rolleyes:
 
OP: "...the legality of making a 91/30 mosin nagant 7.62x54 into a pistol. Not a SBR...."

Making a rifle into a pistol is making an SBR.

Short Barrel Rifle covers weapons made from what were original rifles by shortening the barrel to less than 16" or the overall length to less than 26".

It was made part of the 1934 National Firearms Act to prevent people from evading pistol laws by making pistols out of what were sold as rifles, since pistols were treated different from rifles under many state and local laws.

(Strictly speaking ATF divides handguns into pistols and revolvers but thats another thing. I used the generic pistol=handgun just 'cause the OP did.)

Last year the ATF reversed that opinion and now a pistol can be built into a rifle (>26" overall, >16" barrel) and then made a pistol again legally.
A pistol bought legally as a pistol and converted to a rifle can be converted back. (Implied by the owner who bought it as a pistol in accordance with pistol laws.)
A pistol converted to a rifle by a previous owner bought legally as a rifle, .....? I would want a ATF Firearms Technology Branch letter on that one.
 
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You're not the first to do this... i've seen one. it's uncontrollable in live fire, and shoots a gout of flame nearly the size of a small car. I don't know if it was done legally... I don't don't know why it was done at all.
 
You're not the first to do this... i've seen one. it's uncontrollable in live fire, and shoots a gout of flame nearly the size of a small car. I don't know if it was done legally... I don't don't know why it was done at all.

For the hell of it and it is a weapon with a historical existence. I have to admit I've been tempted to get an AIM cheapie and get myself my first NFA weapon.

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If you're going to do it, just pay the tax. You'll have an NFA weapon for under $400. I have to add though that the concussion from one of those guns is immense. I had a PSL cut down to 16" and it was terrible to shoot (gave me a headache). I can't even imagine an 8" barrel firing that round.
 
If you're going to do it, just pay the tax. You'll have an NFA weapon for under $400. I have to add though that the concussion from one of those guns is immense. I had a PSL cut down to 16" and it was terrible to shoot (gave me a headache). I can't even imagine an 8" barrel firing that round.
Agreed the 200 bucks and wait is still infinitely better than claiming it was never married to a rifle or thinking its on the ATF to prove otherwise.
 
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