is this legal? (video)

[hardhit777]

What the title says.http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/041006-vert_grip.htm

This is classified as a pistol correct? And please correct me if i am wrong but once you add a front grip to it you have according to the ATFE made a short barreled rifle. which is regulated by the NFA. So theoretical if you own a picatini vertical for grip but have it installed on say an Ar-15 carbine. However you also own a Keltec PLR-16. If the ATF wanted to, could they charge you with the possession of an SBR just for having the part to make it or does it have to actually be installed on the keltec to be considered a SBR? Im just trying to better understand the regulation that are in effect.

HH

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Legal beagles will be here soon to discuss contructive possession and such.

Just keep the FG on your carbine, dont horse with the PLR16. I think you can have both weapons in the same place, just dont horse around (even jokingly) with the FG on the Keltec.

 

[Gingerbreadman]

I see no video .

 

[RX-178]

Murky waters.

There was some legal wording that said you could be prosecuted for having 'intent to construct' just by having the parts around.

But then the ATF tried to prosecute everyone who had both a Thompson Center rifle and a Thompson Center Pistol (interchangeable barrels after all) for unregistered possession of an NFA weapon, and the court ruled that merely having a Thompson Center pistol barrel and a Thompson Center rifle stock does not constitute possession of a Short Barreled Rifle.

I wouldn't worry TOO much, as long as that vertical foregrip never EVER touches the PLR-16.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

This is classified as a pistol correct? And please correct me if i am wrong but once you add a front grip to it you have according to the ATFE made a short barreled rifle.

No. Once you add the front grip to a pistol (PLR-16), you have manufactured an "Any Other Weapon" (AOW). This is regulated the same as an SBR under the NFA; but the tax stamp is only $5.

So theoretical if you own a picatini vertical for grip but have it installed on say an Ar-15 carbine. However you also own a Keltec PLR-16. If the ATF wanted to, could they charge you with the possession of an SBR just for having the part to make it or does it have to actually be installed on the keltec to be considered a SBR?

Seach for "constructive possession" here. According to the Supreme Court in Thompson Centerfire, if there is a legal use for the vertical grip in your possession, then it isn't constructive possession.

Having said that, the feds in Washington just charged somebody for constructive possession in a similar situation - although in that case, they were trying to beat the guy into cooperating with another criminal investigation and the feds did ultimately lose on appeal.

 

[TX1911fan]

Interesting, I'd never thought of the constructive possession angle of my AR-15 forward grip and the picatinny rails on my handguns.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Let's dispel all paranoia:

If you own a vertical grip, are you going to use it legally or illegally. If you own the grip and the only thing it can attach to is a pistol, well, voila, constructive possession.

If you have a title I AR-15 that you can have the grip on and also own the PLR-16, then the grip is for the AR-15. You wouldn't put it on the PLR-16 because that's constructing an unregistered NFA weapon. That's what you'd tell the court. The thing that prevents you from putting it on your pistol? Fear of prosecution. That's what you'd also tell the court.

Most laws are about intention. You have no intent to do something illegal. You wouldn't do something illegal. So quit worrying.

Also, keep in mind some of the videos you see on youtube may come from Canada, where you can add things like stocks and vertical grips to pistols and the government doesn't care; because Canada actually DOES have some common sense in SOME of their laws.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Generally Prince Yamato is right; but in the Washington constructive possession case the defendant had a VP70Z (Title I handgun) and VP70M (NFA Machinegun). In the case of the VP70, the fixed stock makes it into a machinegun.

Despite having a legal reason to own the fixed stock for the VP70M, the defendant was charged with constructive possession of an unregistered machinegun because it could also be used with the VP70Z.

Now a very important fact here is that the defendant was also the suspect in the murder of a gun control activist/local prosecutor and the Feds had been seeking more cooperation from him in that investigation.

The district court actually convicted him of possession and the conviction was only overturned on appeal.

So while I would say that Prince Yamato's answer is the right answer. I would also note that once in a blue moon, the right thing doesn't happen.

 

[Quiet]

(Form 1) Manufacture of an AOW is $200.

(Form 4) Transfering an AOW is $5.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Good point Quiet. Thanks for bringing that up. This is why it makes good sense to give your pistol to an SOT and have them "manufacture" it by attaching the grip instead of doing it all yourself.

 

[hardhit777]

sorry guys i posted the wrong link here is the one i was talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDGUJ1lhmnQ

I dont own either an AR or a plr wish i had an ar but right now im more worried about buying a new car.

It would seem the ATF like to go above and beyond the call of duty so to speak on not so rare occasions....

 

[DMF]

Yet another thread where people completely misuse the term "constructive possession."
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Constructive possession has nothing to do with the ability or intent to manufacture an item, it relates to excercising dominion and control over an item even though you don't physically possess it.

This has been explained MANY times before.

For example on this thread: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4261086&highlight=constructive+possession#post4261086

 

[hardhit777]

Thanks for the link DMF it is very helpful.

HH

 

[Prince Yamato]

If he's a US citizen, he's legal if he registered the weapon as an AOW or SBR and registered the silencer.

If he's a Canadian citizen, he's legal if he has a prohibited class license, the suppressor is covered on that license, and that the magazine he has is a 10/30 pistol AR mag that is pinned to 10 rounds.

 

[wig]

Manufacturing IS $200, transfer is $5, yes. HOWEVER, buy putting the grip on and changing classification - you are the manufacturer. So Pony up the $200, wait the certification period, stamp your name on slide - all assuming you are licensed by BATFE to be a manufacturer.

(just had that discussion with BATFE two days ago in person, but it was based around AR lowers and uppers - that is, I take Lower A and mate it with upper B, I am a manufacturer if I sell this device.)

 

[Wes Janson]

Good point Quiet. Thanks for bringing that up. This is why it makes good sense to give your pistol to an SOT and have them "manufacture" it by attaching the grip instead of doing it all yourself.

Except that the manufacturer still has to pay the tax, so you're not saving anything there, except wasting the SOT's time.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Except that the manufacturer still has to pay the tax, so you're not saving anything there, except wasting the SOT's time.

SOTs generally pay a fixed tax annually regardless of the number of NFA items manufactured. So they would not be affected.

(just had that discussion with BATFE two days ago in person, but it was based around AR lowers and uppers - that is, I take Lower A and mate it with upper B, I am a manufacturer if I sell this device.)

Meaning they wanted you to pay the excise tax? Did they suggest how to go about it? In any case, get whatever they said in writing or it is pretty much meaningless.

 

[wdlsguy]

Manufacturing IS $200

$200 for an unlicensed person to make and register an AOW on a Form 1 (Application to Make and Register a Firearm).

$0 for a class 2 SOT to manufacture an AOW on a Form 2 (Notice of Firearms Manufactured or Imported).

transfer is $5, yes. HOWEVER, buy putting the grip on and changing classification - you are the manufacturer.

Technically, unless you are a class 2 SOT, you are the maker.

So Pony up the $200, wait the certification period, stamp your name on slide - all assuming you are licensed by BATFE to be a manufacturer.

A maker needs to engrave, cast, or stamp his/her name, city and state (or recognized abbreviations thereof) on the frame, receiver, or barrel. See 27 CFR 479.102 for details. As mentioned above, you don't need to be a licensed manufacturer.

Except that the manufacturer still has to pay the tax, so you're not saving anything there, except wasting the SOT's time.

As mentioned above, a class 2 SOT registers NFA firearms tax-free on a Form 2.