Is this possible with a S&W revolver? (Timing Issue)

[DPris]

Good point, good to differentiate.
There can be enough slop in the newer pinless extractor/cylinder fit to skew carry up checks.

In the pinned versions, there's no need to use dummy rounds or empty cases to add additional weight to cause the cylinder to carry up properly.

In the current guns, use of either of the above is not a matter of adding weight, it's a matter of replacing the function of the pins in older guns to anchor the ratchet star in position.

Denis

 

[fastbolt]

There can be enough slop in the newer pinless extractor/cylinder fit to skew carry up checks.

Yep, and it can vary a bit, too.

I was told that it was considered acceptable for the new model revolvers to exhibit carry up where the stop just barely snapped into the stop notch before the hammer fell in DA or reached the cocked position in SA.

I've seen some new ones where the carry up was fine when checked with or without dummy rounds or empty cases in the cylinder, and I've seen some others where the carry up was right at the far end of being acceptable, even with empty cases in the holes. I've been told that this is considered acceptable for the new guns.

I had to cut a new extractor for one of my new J-frames because the carry up on one hole just didn't consistently result in lockup before the hammer fell. I could have returned it for repair but I decided to correct it myself.

I tried a couple of new oversize hands S&W sent me but they still didn't correct the DCU condition to my satisfaction, with the larger of the two being too large (and I didn't want to touch that alloy frame window).

I finally decided to simply cut a new extractor since I had the armorer cutting arm and had done it in the revolver armorer class. I did it under the watchful eye of a long time revolver armorer, just to make sure. I've been an armorer for many other firearms for some time, but was still fairly new as a revolver armorer, after all.

The new extractor I cut gave me the carry up I desired.

At first I thought it was odd that S&W no longer went to the trouble of pinning the extractors.

Then I finally decided that the new method was fine in the real world. It did away with the potential for broken, bent or otherwise damaged pins ... and live ammunition would be in the charge holes when the gun was being fired, anyway, which would serve the function of aligning and holding the extractor during live-fire, after all.

 

[1911Tuner]

Fastbolt and DPris beat me to it. Fuff mentioned the sprung crane issue, and that's spot on. I was going on the assumption that there was nothing else wrong with the gun. I had to straighten a crane on a Model 19 just last week. Shoulda thought about it.

To answer drag's query...case rims basically reduce any backlash present in the ejector star and...as noted...properly align and orient the assembly to the hand.

I do not care for the new design cylinder assembly, Sam I am. I much prefer the old, pinned design...but they didn't consult with me before forging ahead.

 

[Old Fuff]

...but they didn't consult with me before forging ahead.

That's my problem - they never ask me anything. :banghead:

 

[DPris]

An obvious & severe oversight on their part!
Denis

 

[drag80]

Dear Dpris.
U said either a gun is ok or its not ok. Now after reading this post I spent some time checking one of my revolvers(havent checked it so keenly before). Although I have fired300+ rounds without any problem but while checking i noticed that while pulling the hammer back in super slow motion one of the cylinder is slightly late on timmings. All the other 7 other cylinders lock up perfectly in time.

Now heres what happened on the slow cylinder(empty with no dummy cartidges). If if check it in super slow motion, 9 out of 10 times it locks up prefectly in time before the hammer locks into rear position. only once in ten times it is slightly late. How late ? I think thousands of an inch. So slightly that even If i move the gun slightly, I hear the click of bolt locking the cylinder. and it locks perfectly everytime in DA.

Now what do u say about this situation ? Is this gun ok or not ok ?

It fires perfectly and is very accurate. Now this particular gun of mine does not have any problem but now I am trying to forcefully find a problem in it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Drag...some revolvers will do just as you describe. In this case, I'd say that the gun is fine, and needs no attention. I have a Model 13 that is consistently slightly slow on two opposing chambers when cycled in that manner, but never fails when cycled normally due to the cylinder's momentum carrying it.
This, whether the chambers are loaded or not. It's an older model with the pinned ejector star.

Since you're a new member, you may not have had time to catch onto a few things.


It's apparent that you've studied the workings of double-action revolvers and understand how they function...however, there are several highly experienced and skilled gunsmiths...both active and retired...included in the membership. Jim Keenan is one such, and he likely has had more "wrench time" on Smith and Colt revolvers than any three of us combined. Old Fuff is another who not only has practical experience, but is also recognized as our resident historian. The 1911 platform is my main focus, but I've also been into a number of revolvers over the years...the most recent just over a week ago when I straightened up a crane that had been sprung from flipping the cylinder open in Too-Cool, Hollywood Private Dee-tective fashion by the owner's brother in-law.

Welcome aboard, and enjoy your stay!

 

[Old Fuff]

Remember that the hand that rorates the cylinder is attached to the trigger, not the hammer. When you pull the trigger in the double-action mode you move the trigger all of the way back as far as it will go. When you cock the hammer the trigger doesn't go all of the way back because it still has to have enough travel to release the hammer. In some revolvers you can release the hammer without pulling the trigger all of the way back, and while the difference is small, it may be just enough if the hand hasn't moved the cylinder quite far enough to have the cylinder stop lock it.

This condition isn't very common, and is most often seen in revolvers that have some kind of a trigger backlash stop. In any case it's something that should be corrected.

As a side-note: If you go back far enough before World War Two you will find that the extractor star had one arm that was notched for a little key that was machined into the cylinder's extractor's cutout in the rear cylinder face. This was in addition to (usually) two pins to keep the star positioned when there were no cases or cartridges in the chambers. It represented a neat job of machining at a time when CNC advocates claim they were using chipped flint to make cutting bits. Of course they won't do that kind of work now.

 

[drag80]

Ok now lets say if I want to correct this situation, what should I do ?

Mr. Old Fuff Sir, where I live there are no gunsmiths. Please tell me how can i correct this myself. Is it possible to make a new extractor so that I can tune the timming myself ?

I am asking this coz the valuable information provided can be useful for many other people having this problem.

So Please advice.

 

[DPris]

Drag,
As I mentioned, the carry up is a longstanding function check done by Smith & Wesson & those who work on them.
The guns, if correctly set up, should lock the cylinder in place before the hammer comes to a full-cock position, when cocked slowly.
That's how the design was intended to work in a Smith.

There are undoubtedly thousands of older Smiths running loose around the world that don't exhibit perfect timing & correct function and don't pass the test.
They still fire, and inertia will still carry the cylinder around to full lockup when cycled rapidly. In terms of firing, there's a fair amount of wiggle room in some areas for tolerances & relationships to be out of spec.

But- there's still something wrong, whatever it is won't fix itself, and the problem will tend to get worse as wear & use aggravates it.
If you want to leave such a gun as it is, that's up to you. If you HAVE to leave it as it is, then your decision is made for you.

In my case, I have access to a very good local gunsmith and S&W itself, and I choose to have such problems corrected. I don't want them to wear prematurely with a known & fixable "illness".

Is your gun "OK"? I gave you my best info. I told you what it should do, as described by the company that makes it.
Forcefully finding a problem? Performing a function check & finding the gun doesn't pass as it should isn't forcefully finding a problem, in my mind. It's just keeping equipment maintained.
When I buy any Smith, new or used, it gets that carry up check.

Your gun WILL function, it just doesn't function entirely as it was designed to do.
If you don't understand how the timing (not timmings) works on a Smith, there's no chance you can correct the situation on your own, and you can't "make" a new extractor yourself.
S&W may sell you one, but again- if you have no idea how the timing is set or how to work on the action, it's not likely to be very successful and extremely likely to come out much worse. The extractor is not a drop-in part.
Denis

 

[1911Tuner]

Drag...Timing is corrected by either fitting an oversized hand...a new star/ratchet, or both...or if the gun isn't causing a problem in normal use...just leaving it alone works out pretty well. As DPris noted, the parts aren't drop-in, and it not only takes knowledge...it requires the right tools for the job.

More...The new star design can't readily be adapted to work in an older smith revolver, even if the whole cylinder/star assembly is used. While it will physically fit the gun...the hand is also apparently different, as the mismatch will cause the cylinder to time so early that the gun won't make a full cycle. The hand must also be changed, and I'm not familiar enough with it to know if the new-style hand will even work with the old lockwork. Someone else may be able to shed some light on that question.

Smith & Wesson revolvers pre-time. That is, they're designed to lock the cylinder before the hammer reaches full cock, or before the trigger rolls the hammer back far enough to release it. That pretiming will vary from one gun to the next, but as long as the cylinder is locked in before the hammer falls...it's all good. Colt's older revolvers timed as the hammer broke, and they performed quite well for a lot of rounds. While it's true that they'd go out of time earlier than a Smith...to the point of firing out of battery...even when they were out badly enough to require the attention of a revolversmith...when fired normally in DA mode...they functioned well enough to remain serviceable due to the cylinder's momentum.

 

[Old Fuff]

drag80:

I can't answer your question concerning the timing, because several things could be causing the carry up problem, and because I can't actually handle and examine the revolver I can't tell exactly what is causing it.

When a qualified gunsmith isn't available (and sometimes when one is) the best answer is to send the revolver back to Smith & Wesson. If you call their Service Department they will send you a pre-paid shipping label, so all that you have to do is box it up and attach the label. I would wait until the Christmas rush is over though. more information is available at: www.smith-wesson.com

I suspect they will fix it for free (and anything else they find that's wrong) and then ship it back to you - again pre-paid. Under these circumstances you don't have to go through an FFL dealer. As previously point out it's unlikely you can fix it yourself, and new extractors have to be individually fitted in each gun.

 

[NX1Z]

If you ask S&W, they'll remind you that newer S&W revolvers built without the old-style extractors & extractor pins should be checked with EMPTY, properly sized cases in the charge holes. The extractors are cut differently on new model revolvers, and the cases are important to 'fix' the extractors in position (whereas the older pins used to serve that function). Live cartridge cases serve this function during normal shooting.

This is an EXCELENT point!

I know this post was made a while ago, but I needed to thank you for pointing this out. I bought my M686 brand new and noticed a timing issue that was not very consistent. But when at the range it would always lock-up when I "stage" the trigger. So, at home I tried with empty cases in the cylinder and never see the timing issue. I didnt figure out why until I saw your post. Thanks! The answer is so obvious now...LOL. This is probably the cause of people seeing timing issues on NIB S&W wheel guns, but its not a real issue.

 

[fastbolt]

De nada.

This new design, while probably unsettling to folks used to the older pinned extractors (it took me a while to become used to it) does eliminate having to replace a bent or broken pin in the old style cylinders.

Having some small extra degree of clearance at the ends of the extractor arms does seem to let the extractor re-seat into the cylinder recess easily, too. I've come across my share of older S&W revolvers where the extractors were sharp, especially at the ends, and they could catch and hang up momentarily when letting the extractor go back forward after ejecting empty cases.