Revolver Timing?

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G11354

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I have 2 S&W X frame revolvers (460v, 500) and have found that if I slowly pull the hammer back 1 or 2 cylinders dont lock up before the hammer on each pistol. Though they do not lock up, they are extremely close to doing so. Each pistol has less than 50 rounds through it.

I'm not overly experienced with revolvers, should I consider replacement parts or shoot as is?
 
It sounds like the hand in not advancing the cylinder all the way. I would hate to have it go off not lined up with the bore.
 
Yup - S&W will likely tell you to test again with all chambers having a case in place. I personally don't like to be so forgiving, as that little end play shouldn't mean the difference between safe and not.

If the revolver isn't carrying up far enough or fast enough to lock prior to the DA sear break, it needs work done. Period.
 
Appreciate the feedback. Repeated test on both revolvers with unfired casings but the problem persists in both pistols. I will call S&W and see what they have to say.
 
What happens when you pull the hammer back normally, as opposed to slowly?

Doesn't matter. If it's out of time, it's at risk. S&W will remedy the issue, so there is no sense living with the risk that the OP, his wife, kid, buddy, neighbor, some guy at the range who wants to try his revolver, the next owner, etc etc don't know the issue and don't run it hard enough to cause a quick roll lock up.
 
Just got off the phone with S&W customer support, I was told all is well and not to worry.

I'm surprised they told you that. One more example of the decline in quality at Smith and Wesson.

The mechanisms of Double Action and Single action revolvers are quite a bit different.

With a Single Action revolver, if you cock the hammer very slowly, ideally, the bolt (the spring loaded piece sticking up from the frame under the cylinder) will pop up into place into its locking slot in the cylinder at the exact same moment as the hammer goes to full cock. Sometimes you will find that the hammer goes to full cock just slightly before the bolt pops home into place. It is not ideal, but usually there is enough over travel in the hammer so that in normal operation the momentum of the cylinder will cause it to keep rotating to battery as you pull the hammer all the way back. This is fairly common. It is not ideal, but it is better than the opposite condition where the bolt pops into the locking slot before the hammer goes to full cock. In this case, because the cylinder is locked into place, the hand (the piece behind the cylinder that shoves the cylinder around and pivots on the hammer) will prevent the hammer from rotating all the way back to full cock. In this case, you cannot operate the gun, because you cannot bring the gun to full cock. A bazillion years ago, when all revolvers were assembled by skilled assemblers, the parts would be carefully hand fitted (with files and stones) so the cylinder locked in place at the exact same time as the hammer went to full cock. Hand fitting parts that way was very expensive, so eventually Single Action revolver manufacturers fell back on the logic that it was better to rely on a little over travel of the hammer to bring the cylinder to battery, than have the hammer not be able to go to full cock. You will often find that with old Single Action revolvers that have been shot for many years, the hand, or the ratchet teeth on the rear of the cylinder, or both may have worn slightly so that the shooter has to rely on over travel of the hammer to bring the cylinder to battery. This can be fixed by a skilled gunsmith, but they are hard to find these days, and it will be expensive. Or you can just always make sure you give the hammer a good yank when you cock the gun.

Double Action revolvers (like your X frame revolvers) have a very different mechanism inside them. With a Smith and Wesson revolver, the cylinder should always lock up just before the hammer travels as far back as it is supposed to. Double Action or Single Action. If you cycle the gun very, very slowly, in double action mode (when you pull the trigger back all the way) the hammer will not move back quite as far before it falls as it will in Single Action mode (cocking the hammer manually). This is as it is supposed to be. It is part of the design of the mechanism. You can check this out for yourself by operating the gun very slowly and retarding the hammer fall with your thumb. But the cylinder of a S&W revolver should always lock into place ever so slightly before the hammer goes to full cock in Single Action mode, or it falls in Double Action mode.

The only reason this should not happen with a S&W Double Action revolver is if it is old, and there is wear in the moving parts. The amount of wear will depend on how much it has been shot over the years. Or how much it has been played with.

I buy lots of old revolvers. S&W Double Actions, and various old Single Action revolvers. When I am inspecting one the first thing I do, after first making triple sure it is unloaded, is bring the hammer to full cock, then push forward against the hammer with my thumb. The hammer should NEVER push off and fall from full cock if the trigger is not touched. Never. If it does, the gun is unsafe. The next thing I do, and this applies to you, Is operate the mechanism very slowly, using the thumb of one hand to cause drag on the cylinder, while the thumb of the other hand controls the hammer so it does not fall all the way. With a Single Action revolver I can obviously only do this as I cock the hammer. With a Double Action revolver I do it in both modes. As I said earlier, with a Single Action revolver, it may require a very small amount of over travel of the hammer before the cylinder locks up. With a Double Action revolver, the cylinder should lock up just before the hammer either goes to full cock or falls.

With an old revolver, if the timing is not perfect, I will then make a judgement call on whether I can live with a revolver who's timing is slightly off from wear. In truth, in normal operation, the cylinder generates enough momentum as it spins to carry it all the way to the locked position. That is what S&W is counting on in your case. When you operate the gun the cylinder will continue spinning all the way to the locked position, and there will not be a problem. A brand-spanky new revolver that behaves like that would never have made it out the door many years ago when highly skilled assemblers were tuning the action before hardening and final assembly, and there were more in process inspection steps than there are today. I just grabbed a S&W 32-20 Hand Ejector made in 1916. The timing is still as perfect as the day it left the factory. I have others S&W revolver of the same general age that have a tiny bit of wear in the mechanism and if I operate them very slowly they might not go completely to battery before the hammer does its thing. But in every case, a nice strong yank on the hammer in Single Action mode, or a good strong pull of the trigger in Double Action mode will get them into battery properly. But before I reach for my wallet, I make sure I understand what is going on with each of them.

For the timing to be off on a brand-spanky new S&W is just wrong, one of the reasons I never buy brand new Smiths any more.
 
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I was toying with the idea of purchasing an oversized hand for the pistol. However the largest oversized hand I can find is for the N frame revolvers.
 
I was toying with the idea of purchasing an oversized hand for the pistol. However the largest oversized hand I can find is for the N frame revolvers.
the hand will still have to be fitted to each ratchet on the cylinder. i suggest a certified gunsmith for this kind of fix.

luck,

murf
 
On a handgun that powerful, you certainly want everything to be lined up. Any revolver, really. Having said that, I don't check the timing on revolvers the same way other people do. I've got a caveat on that later.*

For checking timing, I personally feel that dragging the thumb on the cylinder or extremely slow cycling are methods that demand much more margin of error than is actually needed, But it's a place to start.

I have one or two j frames and maybe a couple of other guns that may be slightly behind the curve in terms of the cylinder clicking into place by the time the hammer hits it rearward most position when pulled extremely slowly. These are near new condition guns from the late 60's (J frames are more likely to encounter this issue than K frames, it seems.) However, what I care about isn't clicks, but whether the chamber is correctly lined up with the forcing cone when the hammer drops under normal shooting conditions. Since dragging my thumb on the cylinder or pulling the hammer extremely slowly never occurs during my normal shooting, I don't do that.

I put these cheapo plastic snap caps (sorry, don't know who they're made by, but they're NOT the good ones) into my cylinder. These are the caps made of molded orange or yellow plastic. These caps will show a permanent indentation where struck by the firing pin, and this is what you want. It just so happens that these particular caps have a mold/flashing line that bisects the center of the back part of the cap (the end that the primer would be on with a real round.) That's the exact center of the circle...or close enough for government work. I array these mold lines out from the center of the cylinder (which will be the center of the ejector rod shaft.) If you have difficulty seeing the mold lines, you can mark their location on the side of the snap cap rim with a black sharpie. This will allow you to make sure the caps aren't rotating in the cylinder when you're doing your test. (They rarely do.)

With the cylinder closed, you fire your gun the way you would in a real life setting. Open the cylinder to see where the firing pin has struck the snap cap. If it's on the mold line that bisects the circle of the back surface of the snap cap, then the firing pin is hitting the round exactly when it should - in the center of the circle. Most of the time, a gun that's slightly slow when using the "excess margin of error" technique will be right on time when pulling the trigger or the hammer in a normal fashion, because the momentum of the quickly rotating cylinder will move the chamber into the correct position by the time the firing pin makes contact with the cartridge. I'm guessing the folks at S&W used some variant of this technique when they determined the OP's gun was safe to shoot as is. OR they just looked at the indentation on the primers of the spent cases.

*I should say that since the snap cap method costs you the price of the snap cap (which can't be used for this purpose again) it's cheaper to start off with the excessive margin of error method. If the gun fails that test, then you go to the snap cap method. Are these type of caps available in .500? I don't know.
 
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Just got off the phone with S&W customer support, I was told all is well and not to worry.

Of course, I cannot know the full content of this phone conversation, but I do not think S&W has reached the right conclusion. Can you say more about what questions they asked and why they think the gun is safe.

Here are my thoughts on the subject:

  1. On current generation S&W revolvers, the timing needs to be checked with brass in the chambers.
  2. If the hammer will drop before the cylinder stop locks the cylinder, then the revolver is out of time. No matter how slowly the hammer is cocked, or the trigger is pulled, the cylinder should lock before the hammer drops.
  3. If the revolver is slightly out of time, then momentum will generally cause the cylinder to lock during firing at normal speed. This does not mean that the revolver is correctly timed.
  4. Normal wear will make an out of time revolver get worse over time. It will not improve on its own.

From your description, I believe your revolvers should be eligible for repair.
 
It is true that if you pay what they want for a .500 revolver you want the gun to be to the proper specs, whatever they may be. Just because a gun is safe, doesn't mean it's to specs. But S&W determines the specs, not the customer. I don't know what official S&W policy is on this so check with them.

I actually just came back to post a pic of a gun way out of time. See how far out of center the indentation on the primer is? There also may not be much of a forcing cone on cheapo guns like this.

kaboom.jpg
 
I know three things:

1) You can't sell me a revolver which doesn't lock up before the sear break.

2) I won't keep a revolver without fixing it if it wears itself out of time (which can & does happen, and has happened to a handful of my revolvers over the years)

3) Some customer service rep can't sell me on a line of BS, claiming an out of time revolver is working as it should.

At that point, if a customer service rep says something so foolish - as they often do - I'm reminded of a scene from Parks & Recreation:

 
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