Is your BLACK POWDER measuring device accurate?

[ClemBert]

This thread is specific to REAL black powder. Lets not muck up this thread by talking about BP substitutes. Start a new thread if you want to talk about BP substitutes.

Anyhow, the topic of discussion here is "How accurate is your BP measuring device"? Many folks here won't care as long as their measuring device throws a consistent quantity every time. However, I bring up this topic because a question that is often asked on this forum (especially by newbies) is: "How much BP do you recommend I use in my new BP revolver"?

You'll see a flood of answers and opinions. So when someone says "28 grains of Goex FFFg is the most accurate in my 1858" one is left to ponder what they used to measure their BP. Is your 28 grain measurement going to be the same as my 28 grain measurement. Sometimes I'll see a fella talk about the fun he had shooting 40 grains of Goex FFFg in his Pietta 1858. Really? Will an Pietta 1858 hold 40 grains plus a lubricated wad plus a round ball like this fella indicated? I am doubtful. I see these types of posting enough to be led to believe that some folks either have very inaccurate powder measures or possibly just aren't using their measure correctlly I've even seen several of you point out that of the three or four volumetric powder measures you have they all throw varying amounts of powder.

Has anyone taken the time to calibrate their powder measures? Not because we just like to be anal around here but perhaps just because we really want to know how much powder we are using and want to be accurate about the information we post here for others to digest.

Most folks here volumetrically measure out their real BP. A few will weigh their charges (mostly the BP cartridge folks). Not to get into a discussion of good versus bad in volumetric versus weighed BP measurements but in there anyway to calibrate a volumetric measure without weighing out test charges? It's my understanding that in theory 1 grain of FFg black powder, by volume, should weigh 1 grain. Further, the weighing of FFFg black powder "should be" within a few percentage points of a volumetric measure of this same powder making it close enough for government work.

It is interesting that some folks will insist that black powder is never to be weighed. Yet, when you ask some of these same folks how far will a 1 pound can of GOEX FFFg last when shooting 25 grains per firing you'll get this answer. "There are 7000 grains in a 1 pound can of black powder. Divide 7000 grains by 25 grains/firing and you'll see your can will allow you to shoot your revolver 280 times". That's 7000 grains BY WEIGHT of black powder in that 1 pound can fellas!

Just for grins I thought I check my Thompson Center U-View volumetric powder measure to see how those FFFg grains compared volume versus weight. I set my volumetric measure to 60 grains. I filled it up 10 times and then proceeded to weigh it. This is what I got:

55.5
55.3
55.7
55.1
55.7
55.0
55.1
55.2
55.3
55.2
===
55.31 average

I was really surprised to see how consistent the measurements were. All within 1.25%. As you can see, on average, my volumetric measurement of 60 grains came in weighing about 8% less. I don't have any FFg on hand to compare it to my FFFg.



So, is your black powder measuring device accurate? How would you know?

 

[towboat_er]

Thats the same one I use. Very accurate.

 

[BHP FAN]

I use an old brass one that looks just like that.

 

[TheRodDoc]

Make a test vile to check any measure.
To know for sure you have to weigh lets say 50 grains of water. place a small drop of soap in the water to eliminate the surface tension. After weighing out exactly 50 grains of it on a scale. pour that amount into a clear vile or tube corked on the bottom. Mark the water line on the outside of the tube. Then dump that water and dry inside if tube and repeat but for 60 grains this time. mark this water level on outside of tube.

Now you can mark the tube up or down in 10 grain marks that measure the same distance apart as the two you have already placed on the tube.

Now you can place any type of black powder into this measure to say 40 and you will have exactly 40 grains by volume of powder.

To check your store bought measure, set it to a certain amount and fill it. Then pour it in your test measure. It should be the same. If not remark the store bought one in the right place.

View attachment 136825

 

[Voodoochile]

TheRodDoc;
Your idea is sound but it'd be better to measure real Black Powder instead of water because that is what all these measurements are about.

Take for instance Pyrodex P, it is much lighter by weight than real FFFG Black Powder but you measure it by the volume of what the equivilent Black Powder load would be.

To verify my measures I used my grain scale, back in the 80's & early 90's it was a RCBS reloading balance scale now it is with my digital scale but using Black Powder as the medium for measurement.

 

[TheRodDoc]

Voodoochile,

The reason for the water as a standard is this.

Say the brand of powder I use is lighter then what the brand you use is. I use mine to make every one a powder measure that holds 50 grains by weight. I sell one of the measures I just made to you. You weight out 50 grains of your powder and pour it in my measure and find it holds more then you measured. You call me and say my measures are off.

By using water all measures of 50 grains hold the same amount in volume. It's the only way to make all measures the same for all powders. It will also hold 50 grains by volume of pyrodex too, or tripple 7 and etc.

Otherwise every powder company would have to make a measure for their specifc brand and type of powder.

If you want to weight your brand of powder for your own gun thats fine, but it wont work across the board so to speak.

 

[mykeal]

Interesting, but...does it really matter?

What matters is that you consistently use the load that gets the best group for the ball/patch/wad/whatever combination you use.

What does it matter if that load is 40 or 41 or 39 grains by volume or weight or molecular energy?

If I use TheRodDoc's method and find out my old brass measure or piece of elk antler or hunk of hollowed out hickory branch has actually been throwing 48 grains by quark instead of what I thought all along was 50, have I actually gained anything? Nobody else can use that load because it's developed for my rifle and a particular projectile/powder/patch combination. They'll have to work up their own 'best load'.

Help me understand why I'd want to know this.

 

[arcticap]

It's understood that dropping powder using a long drop tube allows a greater volume of powder to be loaded into a cartridge case as if it were compressed.
So there's different methods for loading a volume of powder including heavy compression and/or repeatedly tapping one's powder measure to settle their powder, and whether it's leveled off or if it's spilling over the top.
When a person states that they've loaded 40 grains, I tend to believe them.
Some folks have also mentioned about the heavy compression of black powder by using compression dies. So when some really do want to squeeze more powder into the chamber then they find a way, and not all chambers and makers have the same capacity.
Maybe the moisture content of a powder will allow it to be compressed more than others.
If Swiss weighs 10% more per volume than maybe some folks weigh their Swiss rather than use volume measures.

 

[TheRodDoc]

I would say it doesn't matter much per person as to what they want to load in their gun, but in order to make and sell measures and to pass on loads to others there has to be some standard to make all measures equal. As if I wanted to tell someone that a 1860 colt will hold 40 grains by volume and the ball will be flush with the cyl. face.
All that I tell will need a volume measure that is the same. If we used weight then the ball might not seat deep enough for someone using ligher powder.

 

[ak-kev]

I'm cursed by being very particular by nature so one day soon I'll want to sort all this out. But right now I'm still in my black powder infantcy and I'm having an absolute ball filling the chambers of '58's and watching the fire and smoke while knocking down steel plates. I know its childish, but Im still on my black powder honeymoon.

 

[PRM]

Close enough for my needs. Any variance matched against my skill level is negligible.

I too, use a hollowed out antler tip for my long guns and would say it is probably more consistent that than the measure on my pistol flask.

 

[Noz]

Then you get into the problem that not all FFg weighs the same. Varies by lot.
Find a volumetric measure that dumps the amount of powder that works well in your guns and go with that immaterial what the scale or commercial volumetric measures say.

If someone tries to pin me down to an exact number, I go with a scale weight, but I load by volume.

 

[45-70 Ranger]

Been there. Done that. Measured by weight and by vol. Found that for real tight stuff with BP Cartridge stuff, I'd weigh every load with the given lot of powder I was using and recorded that load for said lot. VERY ANAL!! But that was when I was on the quest for the very finest shot for shot loads I could build by human hands....

But really, for my everyday shooting, I use vol. for it all. I still wanna have fun and not be so preoccupied with a mess of technical junk! I have used the came powder measures and flasks for the part 45 plus years. I think by now I kinda know what will work and what won't...The Roc Doc appears to be very analytical, me too. But at the same time I'm an old school shooter that just likes to load and shoot! My days of studying everything to the point that I lay awake at night wondering if I missed something are gone! Yes, I was an analyst for about 5 years and I studied patterns, trends, and the like until I could quote every move an auto thief was going to make before he did it. But I was also an old school cop and worked from that "gut feeling" more often than not...

Ak-kev, enjoy the honeymoon! It just keeps getting better. Mine's still going on since 1963!

Just my two cents worth....

 

[TheRodDoc]

Just so you all know the water method isn't MY method, it is THE method that has been used since there was black powder. It is just how every company that makes measures or dippers calibrates them for all black powder and substitutes and always have.
(how else?)
I was just explaining how to check if your 60 grain measure is 60 grains volume. And that is what ClemBert asked.

When I was bench rest shooting I weighed every load of screened powder for those rifles. For my revolvers I use a volume measure.

 

[[email protected]]

Mine are super accurate and right on the money. I make my own out of
brass tubing and check them against my powder scale. My 17 grs for my
revolver checks 17 grs. My 50 grs for the 40 checks perfect. My 55 grs
for the musket same. All my charges are right on. No guess work here.

 

[junkman_01]

Mine are super accurate and right on the money. I make my own out of
brass tubing and check them against my powder scale. My 17 grs for my
revolver checks 17 grs. My 50 grs for the 40 checks perfect. My 55 grs
for the musket same. All my charges are right on. No guess work here.

Assuming you ALWAYS use the same brand, lot, and grade of powder! If not, who knows what they will throw.

 

[[email protected]]

That's right. I have the same lot of powder that should last me for 20 yrs.
I'm 68 now. So I should be set. I have 280,000 grains, and I use 15 grs per
shot. Should have enough for around 18,000 shots and I shoot about 900
a year.

 

[ClemBert]

TheRodDoc,

Thanks for taking the time to explain "The Method". It makes sense.

 

[ClemBert]

I take it that most folks just pick up a BP measure from their favorite source and just run with it without ever questioning the calibration issue or considering the use of a scale.

Part of my issue, in this thread, was to point out that the grains reported to have been used in the owner's BP firearm should be considered a ball park number. This, because just some of us might just come up with a number 10% or more off if given the opportunity to check that person's load using our own method.

 

[ClemBert]

[email protected],

So essentially you are using a "weighed" BP charge since your custom measures will throw a volumetric amount of BP that equals its weight on your scale.

My tendency is this. Use my previously mentioned volumetric measure when shooting cap-n-ball style. When loading up cartridges I set up my Lee Perfect Powder Measure to throw an amount of powder equal to the weighed amount of powder I want. So essentially, I'm using weighed charges for cartridges.

 

[Zeke/PA]

I have made about 100 brass measures in my life that I used for myself and friends.
The diameter of the devices are .500" I.D. with .200" increments on the measure
itself, copied from a purchased measure.
IMHO if a load can be copied from shot to shot with such an "implement", exactly WHY is "accuracy" so important??

 

[junkman_01]

Zeke,

"Copying the the load" from shot to shot IS accuracy. As long as that load is consistent and provides the desired hits on the target it is "accurate".

 

[ClemBert]

Well fellas, you left out the part about participating on a black powder forum where ideas and information is exchanged. A lot of information that is exchanged on this forum has to do with black powder charges. Specifically, UNITS of black powder charges.

For example, if I were to report that I shoot 60 grains of FFFg in my Walker regularly would it matter to anyone if the real amount is 55.3 grains and not the 60 grains I reported? Some folks might care while others wouldn't. What's the point of someone asking about recommended charges for their new BP revolver if the answers you get aren't accurate? I suppose for black powder pretty much everything is good enough for guberment work as long as the shooter is satisfied with the results.

I admit that every firearm is unique and that every lot of BP is unique. So, the right powder charge is determined by the shooter of that firearm. However, I see that there are those who make their own powder measures. And in that context when someone posts a quantity of BP used in their firearm we should pretty much take it with a grain of salt. It "could be" the true quantity posted or perhaps it could be way off.

Jus' sayin'!

 

[napp]

ClemBert,
I understand the point you are trying to make; and I see where you are heading with the thread. Unfortunately, I don't think you will ever get there with all the varying opinions being expressed.

There are some people who will accept an answer regarding powder charges as gospel; and use the recommended amount without question...never considering the inherent differences between powders, the measures used, or the variances between guns.

OTOH, as mykeal stated earlier, there are others (myself included) who don't really care about knowing the absolute down-to-the-last-grain measure used. If someone feeds me a number, I might use it as a starting point; but I will then run incremental tests using less or more powder to see where I achieve the best performance with my powder, my measure, and my gun. My final results may or may not match the number that someone originally threw out on the Internet. It really doesn't matter to me as long as I am convinced that a particular load will consistently give me the best results.

 

[Foto Joe]

1+ on the Lee Perfect Powder Measure, it works great for cartridge loads and best of all...IT'S CHEAP!!

ClemBert has brought up a valid point, the volumetric powder measures that you find out there are specific in their measurements only to themselves, period. I too have found that they tend to be light.

When referring to loads on the forum I will always state, by weight or by volume. If I state by weight, then it's weight and everybodies scale should be the same. Unfortunately the reference to humidity is quite valid.

In Wyoming during the summer I have a spout that throws exactly 30gr 3f Goex. In Arizona in the winter it throws 27gr 3f Goex, humidity makes a huge difference.

TheRodDoc's method for calibrating is fine and correct. Unfortunately most of us, especially the newbies, will not take the time to do this. That's one of the reasons I use my scale.

Personally, when I state a specific load in Black Powder, I would hope that those who might use that load will understand that "Their Mileage May Vary".

Good Topic, Thanks ClemBert