Isn't a widebody .45 the greatest defensive handgun?

[Pepe Domingo]

I am a 9mm collector but I have finally decided to add a .45, 1911 type to my safe. After checking out the market, I just can't understand why single stack .45's still dominate over ones that hold 14 rounds. Maybe I should restate that. I can't understand why the widebodies are not as popular.

Maybe it is because I am so used to chunky 9mm's, but I find the widebody grip to be comfortable and not at all too large. Mind you, I have pretty small hands.

For the same price (in comparable pistols) why would anybody (baring somebody who just could not get their paws around the handle) take a 7-8 shot .45 over a 10+, defensive .45?

Mag price, I guess, could be an issue. However, if the AWB is not renewed then prices should fall somewhat. Besides, MEC-GAR (quality) and PRO-MAG (questionable) 10 rounders are not outrageous in price.

I love my 9mms. I feel better with 15 of them in my mag versus 7 .45's. However, in my heart I feel that a hot .45 is the more effective round. Having 14 of them in my hand would be the cats meow.

Just throwing it out there to see what you guys think.

 

[c_yeager]

i think a lot of people who are into 1911's shoot them more because of the shape of the gun than the cartridge it fires. Hence, all the 1911's available in such an array of callibers. I for one cannot stand pistols with really chunky grips. They simply dont "fit" me.

 

[ACP]

Single stacks fit the hand better, and they hide better. Having a lot of a good cartridge isn't enough -- you have to be able to shoot it well (i.e. hand fit and trigger reach) and carry it discretely (i.e. a smaller butt). That's why single stack 1911s are more popular. Plus, there are more of them, and they are the original.

 

[Smoke]

Many beleive the double stack 45's to not be as reliable.

That has not been my experience.

I love my Paraa Ordnance double stacks. I have to P14's and a P13.
I have large hands. Many people do find them to be a bit large.

A double stack 45 is bigger than a double 9.

YMMV

 

[sm]

Welcome to THR!

Isn't a widebody .45 the greatest defensive handgun?

Not for everyone.
I personally prefer the orignal design. Prefer keeping as close to original design as far as function and reliability, and yep, sentimental reasons too.
For me defensive also means carrying concealed. As others have stated the slim nature is easy to carry a full size. I like the cartridge, but was taught shot placement over rd count.

I've shot widebodies, bit chunky for me to carry, and that original design thing, again.

Not the greatest for everyone. We have wheelgunners, we have Sig 220 fans,we have the Beretta Bunch...etc.

My definition of great defensive handgun? Gun must fit Shooter in a platform, in the largest caliber the shooter can obtain quick accurate hits, with ammo reliable everytime in that gun.

Got my druthers, because MY other choice is old smith 3" rb K frame...but that's another forum.

I never bash another's choice. It matters not to me. It should matter to each individual tho'.

 

[Sean Smith]

Widebody .45 ACP 1911s are:

Less reliable (on average)
Have worse ergonomics (for most people)
Are less concealable (for anybody)

Other double-stack .45 ACP guns (e.g. Glock 21) are very reliable, but still have the other 2 problems in spades... those large-frame Glocks have a very FAT grip.

 

[SigP220ST_Guy]

This is my preferred .45ACP and it fits my hand like a glove. All the double stack .45's I have tried are too big for me to get a comfortable grip on. I could shoot a double stack .45 but it would not be as comfortable after a long day shooting.

Plus with the ban the way it is I am only losing two rounds (8vs10) not a big deal. 10 round single stack mags are also available.

 

[MaterDei]

In addition to the above reasons...

I can't speak for all but tradition and comfort have a lot to do with it. I carried a 1911 for many years while in the Army. After getting out I got a wonder nine and it never felt 'right'. I can't really explain it but I never grew comfortable not having a 1911. Don't get me wrong, I like the plastic nines as much as the next guy, but there is just something special about owning and carrying a classic slab side.

MaterDei

 

[BerettaNut92]

Ergonomics. Some of us can't shoot doublestack 1911s as efficiently.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Isn't a widebody .45 the greatest defensive handgun?

Nope.

Sam

 

[gbelleh]

I haven't held too many guns that didn't fit me well enough to shoot it comfortably. I like the single stack 1911s, but I'm equally comfortable shooting a Beretta 92.

Concealment would be the only factor for me that might rule out a wide grip for carry. For home defense I like a wide grip and high capacity.

If a double stack 1911 fits you and you shoot it well, maybe it is the greatest defensive handgun for you.

 

[Correia]

I use a wide body 1911, and it is my carry gun anytime that I can wear some sort of concealing garment. When all I can wear is a tucked in shirt, then I carry a single stack.

I have enormous hands, so the double stack gun actually fits me much better. Also I find that I control the bigger gun better during fast strings of fire because the wider grip distributes the recoil better. My Kimber/Bul has been totally reliable under all sorts of conditions and through a whole mess of shooting.

So for me personally the wide body 1911 is the greatest defensive handgun. However for somebody else it might be a Glock 19, a Sig 220, or a brace of K frame Smiths.

 

[VG]

....I just can't understand why single stack .45's still dominate over ones that hold 14 rounds. Maybe I should restate that. I can't understand why the widebodies are not as popular.

Because there is not a problem that is solved by a high capacity .45 that isn't solved by a single-stack .45.

And current legislation which restricts pistols to 10 rounds further limits the "market."

 

[jercamp45]

Logic may say yes......

but reality says 'no'.
Reliability is a primary issue...some widebodies are not...whether it is the mags or the spring weaken faster I cannot say. A friend carried a Para P12 for years...he had to replace the mag springs often, and still had reliability challenges every now and again...he switched to a SA HD 40(cause his agency gave him free 40 cal ammo!).
'Feel' too is an issue. I am used to the single stack and though I have very large hands, the single stack feels better.
Concealment...singles are thin, wides are...fat. The single mags are thin, the wides are fat. Reloading is a practised art form than can be accomplished very fast......but the most important thing is to hit what you are aiming at with rounds 1, 2, 3, etc.
Budget....I already have single stack mags and pouches out the wazoo... the wide bodied mags(at least high caps) are very expensive. The Wilson KZ45 mags are 40 bucks, the Wilsons 7 rounders are 25. There is a 2 or three round diff, depending on model.
Even if I knew I was going to get into some major conflict where every round counted, I'd stick with what I know, add another Uncle Mikes Quad pouch on my 'bat'belt, then go buy/get/obtain an AK or AR and quite a few mags.
The pistol can be useful in guarding prisoners, clearing buidings at extreme close quarters and as a last ditch survival too(a most handy thing to have as you rest in a combat zone). But your primary tool is the rifle. For CCW it is not normally how many rounds you put down range, but that you have it with you, it is reliable and you can hit with it. If you know you are going into some deep caca, you go the other way or get a rifle(or shotgun) and some friends!
Even most of the Special tactical units use the single over the double in 1911's, the only unit I can think of, off hand that uses the double stacks is the National FBI HRT using Para's that are heavily modified. Even the FBI local teams uses single stack's.
Competition is a horse of a different color.......but hiding one of those high cap, optical sighted, compensated 38 supers would be hard for the largest guy.
To answer an above statement...I carry a .45 because it is a .45. And regardless or the choice of guns, I'll chose whatever .45 auto I can, then I pick the launching system. I like the 1911 because I am very familiar with it(almost 30 years). I like Sig's too and it would be my second choice for a ccw/defensive handgun, but the 1911 is so ingrained in my subconscious.....I see little reason to change.
But, each to their own......
Jercamp45

 

[Sean Smith]

Even most of the Special tactical units use the single over the double in 1911's, the only unit I can think of, off hand that uses the double stacks is the National FBI HRT using Para's that are heavily modified.

And those have been reported to be unreliable.

 

[tlhelmer]

I have wondered the same thing after owning and shooting my Glock 21 in .45 and now my Glock 20 in 10mm. 13 +1 and 15 + 1 of that kind of firepower is awesome.

 

[Delmar]

With the current capacity restriction, I see no advantage for me. The wide bodies are harder to conceal and offer a whopping 2 shot advantage over an 8+1 shot single stack.
If we can convince the congress of a little dab of common sense in letting go of their stupid restrictions, I would be interested in a 14-15 shot 45.
I realize they can be had currently in the used market, but mag prices being what they are, I'll continue to practice my reloading drills.

 

[10-Ring]

I can't understand why the widebodies are not as popular.

Because more goes into consideration than just mag capacity...grip size, reliability, concealability, & aftermarket parts availability are just a few issues involved.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Isn't a widebody .45 the greatest defensive handgun?

"Greatest" is totally subjective. A widebody .45 may fit you like a glove. Personally, no semiauto feels as good to me as a Browning High Power. But when the SHTF, I'm going to grab my Smith & Wesson Model 28 .357 out of the bedside lock-box.

YMMV.

 

[Ian11]

See how well you can shoot a .45 compared to your 9mm. I noticed my accuracy in follow up shots suffered when I switched from 9mm/.40 to a .45 Nothing incredibly dramatic but for a defense gun I just didn't like the idea I could shoot a 9mm or a .40 "better" than a .45. So why switch? Just so I could say I use a .45 as a defense gun? Its not like I have that much more "faith" in the .45 ACP over a 9mm or a .40 anyway. And its one thing to be able to puff your chest out and say you shoot "manly" guns like .45's, 10mm, .357's; but for life and death situations its better to confront cold reality. After trying numerous .45's I was just about to give up on .45's (as a defense gun) until I discovered the SIG P220ST. With this particular .45 I could shoot it better than most 9mm/.40's and accurate double taps were just as quick as any 9mm. And that is the only reason I still rely on a .45 for defense and not just for plinking at the range.

The .45 ACP is a good defense round (better? I don't know) but the 9mm/.40 is better than a .45 if you are more effective with it.

edit:

One more thing. I used to own a Glock 21. I have medium sized hands. When I shot the thing one handed the gun torqued and twisted in my hand more than I liked. Make sure a fat double stack .45 fits your hand well for controllability.

 

[WhoKnowsWho]

I held a Para Ord wide body and said "This feels big"

I held a RIA wide body and said "This feels big and weird"

I don't mind my Glock grip, but I think I am starting to prefer most single stacks. Though I did like the feel of the Taurus Millinium grip. Some are good, some are bad, it all depends on the user.

 

[antediluvianist]

other uses for the additional cartridges

"Plus with the ban the way it is I am only losing two rounds (8vs10) not a big deal. 10 round single stack mags are also available."

Outside of the U.S.- like in my country - where a hi-cap .45 magazine ty[ically contains 14 or 15-rounds , there IS a benefit to having a hi-cap .45. The additional mass of those cartridges- at least at the start of a firing sequence- also tends to tame recoil somewhat, although the additional mass is in the butt.

Maybe in the U.S., warning shots (into the air to disperse guys loitering around) are not advisable/illegal/necessary. In other countries, it is good to have a way of dispersing loiterers/indecisive potential muggers without shooting into them. And a few "extra" rounds for that purpose, plus others in case the situation does become nasty, can come in handy. You have to experience that sort of situation to know that it does happen.

 

[M58]

Depends on your hand size.
I prefer the S&W 45xx and 10xx grips. They are single stacks.
And given that I have both, I would rather have the 1086 in hand when trouble hits the AC unit.

A Sig 220 in 10mm would be good.

 

[Pepe Domingo]

Wow, thanks for all of the replies. It is great to get other takes on issues.

I guess "greatest" was probably the wrong choice of words. I realize that certain guns are just better suited than others for certain applications. Obviously a widebody would not be suited for most CCW situations.

As far as reliability goes, I was not aware that double stack 1911's had a bad reputation. I have a Para-Ordnance 9mm LDA. The problems I have had with it center on the complex LDA trigger and not with feeding. That maybe because it is a 9mm. I have yet to have a stoppage over 3,000k rounds.

I don't quite get the "If you can't solve your problem with 7 rounds, what are 14 gonna do for you" argument. I mean, all things being equal (except mag capacity) wouldn't it be absurd to go with 7 instead of 14. What if mass zombies attack? It is a personal thing, so don't flame me. If I can handle a widebody as well as a single stack, and the pistol is as reliable, I will sleep better with 14 in the hole much as I prefer to insert 30 round AR-15 magazines into my carbine instead of 10's and 20's. I am confident that I can hit my targets with a minimum of fuss and ammo expenditure. However, should my targets prove fussier than normal I will be prepared.

BTW, I am not a double stack snob. My CCW is a Kahr MK-9. I am just being a devil's advocate.

Pepe Out

 

[Grayrider]

I like hi-cap 1911s quite a bit really. Try the polymer framed wide-bodies, such as the Kimber, Bul, KZ, STI, etc. I think you will be pleased with their grip dimensions and reliability. Just be prepared to pay a lot for some mags. I just wrote that off as part of the price of the gun. 14 rounds of 45 has its appeal. Now I don't get to hung up on ammo capacity, but I do like the idea of carrying fewer mags to achieve a given total round count.

GR