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Israeli Assassins!

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Sergeant Bob, Aug 21, 2003.

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  1. agricola

    agricola Member

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    Keith,

    The PA is monumentally corrupt, however it has only been in existance for a short time (in terms of the war), and even Arafat cannot be blamed for it all because for most of recent history both he and the PLO have been in exile.

    Palestinians have been making do with their agricultural land since the occupation, but this land has either been taken for settlements, IDF camps or (most recently) the setting up of the Wall, which is a major reason for the continuing opposition, as the Torygraph story below shows:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/11/28/woliv28.xml

    Palestinian olive trees sold to rich Israelis
    By Alan Philps in Jerusalem
    (Filed: 28/11/2002)


    Israel's Defence Ministry is investigating reports that Palestinian olive trees uprooted to make way for a security fence are being sold illegally to rich Israelis and town councils, sometimes for thousands of pounds each.

    The illegal trade in olive trees has flourished as Israeli contractors, supported by armed guards, clear Palestinian agricultural land where an 80-mile electronic fence is being built to seal off the West Bank.

    Thousands of olive trees have been dug up to make way for the 150-ft wide barrier and security zone. Its route usually passes inside Palestinian territory, not along the old pre-1967 border, and thousands of Palestinian farmers say their livelihood is being taken away.

    Sale of the olive trees emerged after the owner of a contracting company offered two reporters from a popular Israeli newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, 100 large olive trees for £150 each.

    The reporters found one enormous tree, said to be 600 years old, on sale at an Israeli plant nursery for £3,500. They said the trade was conducted with the complicity of an official in the civil administration, the Israeli military government in the occupied territories.

    Olive trees are extremely hardy, can live for hundreds of years and will often stand transplanting. Gnarled old specimens which are claimed, with some exaggeration, to have been alive at the time of Jesus are much sought after for gardens of the rich or city parks.

    The Defence Ministry, which is in charge of the security fence, said it had launched an investigation. "The ministry pays contractors for uprooting and replanting and, in their contract, there is no clause that allows for trade in the trees. If there is such a trade, it is a criminal activity," it said.

    Some contracts require the olive trees to be relocated to areas suggested by their owners outside the Israeli-declared security zone. But Yael Stein, researcher for B'tselem, an Israeli human rights organisation, said: "We have never seen any relocation. The contractors cannot just sell the trees. That is theft."

    While the trees may be ornaments to Israelis, olives are the lifeblood of Palestinian agriculture, almost the only crop which grows on the stony hillsides of the West Bank without irrigation. Most Palestinians are unemployed after two years of violence and their staple diet is bread and olive oil.

    About 11,000 Palestinian farmers will lose all or some of their land holdings to the fence. Sharif Omar, from the village of Jayous, near the Israeli town of Kochav Yair, said: "I have lost almost everything. I have lost 2,700 fruit and olive trees. And 44 of 50 acres I own have been confiscated for the fence."

    His village lost seven wells, 15,000 olive trees and 50,000 citrus and other fruit trees. "This area is the agricultural store for the West Bank. They are destroying us," he said.

    Israel is offering compensation for confiscated agricultural land but Palestinians are unlikely to apply, as they still hope to get their land back.

    The Palestinian Agriculture Ministry says 200,000 olive trees have been destroyed by Israeli soldiers and settlers in the past two years to provide security for settlers.

    The £90 million fence will prevent suicide bombers infiltrating into Israel. But some Israeli border communities say depriving Palestinians of their livelihood will make for worse, not better, neighbours.
     
  2. Dilettante

    Dilettante Member

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    It's even worse than that. Arafat did publicly call for peace and mutual recognition...and at the same time--even from the beginning-- he promised his supporters that they would destroy Israel.
    No one will ever believe him again when he talks about peace. Someday he's going to die, and then hopefully some progress can be made.
     
  3. OF

    OF Member

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    What difference does it make how 'moderate' a HAMAS leader is? This murdering slime was the 'most likely' to negotiate? Death is what the bus-bombing scum deserve, and that is what they will get. Even the 'moderate' bus-bombing scum.

    Arafat was offered virtually everything he ever asked for and he turned it down. There will only be peace when there is victory.

    - Gabe
     
  4. Keith

    Keith Member

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    If the olive trees are on the border, they need to be removed to make way for that fence.
    It's just another example of twisted thinking when Europeans make a stink about Israel building a border fence. Europeans certainly have fences along their borders, yet when Israel builds one (with far more reason) the Europeans begin screaming and running in circles to demonstrate their outrage.

    As for Arafat being in exile - that's a ridiculous assertion that has nothing to do with reality at all! Arafat has not been in exile since Oslo, he's been comfortably ensconced within the Palestinian Authority, busy stealing all the aid sent by various nations.

    Keith
     
  5. agricola

    agricola Member

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    Keith,

    the point of that article was to show you that the Palestinians - at least eleven thousand of them - have been farming their lands and not sat idly in a refugee camp. What has the years of effort put into growing citrus, oranges and olives brought them? Besides, what kind of planning authority approved a plan that takes out eleven thousand small farms, to say nothing of large areas of towns, markets, an aluminium factory. Also, this is not the border between Israel and the West Bank - that is the so-called "Green Line" - but rather this is a further "security zone" to that line which rests almost totally on Palestinian land.

    Oslo was in 1993, and I have stated twice on this thread that the PA is corrupt, and that corruption is down largely to Arafat and his cronies. However you stated:

    The Palestinians do not live in misery because of Israel, but because their misery is the currency used by Arafat and his thugs to garner world sympathy. If the PA allowed their subjects to begin farming and manufacturing, they'd lose much of their support - so it continues.

    Prior to 1993 the Palestinians were living in misery in any case, as the history of the camps both inside the Occupied Territories and cases like Sabra and Shatila show - so your point is moot before we even get to 1993. Since then, graft has been a major feature of the PA regime - but the PA has been rendered totally ineffective, and this is almost totally down to Israeli state policy.
     
  6. Dilettante

    Dilettante Member

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    Sabra and Shatila were in Lebanon, not in Israel or Places Sometimes Referred To As Palestine.
     
  7. agricola

    agricola Member

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    dilettante,

    which is why there was the distinction between them and the Occupied Territories
     
  8. GinSlinger

    GinSlinger Member

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    According to the CIA, in 2002 Palestine (Gaza Strip and the West Bank) had a population of a little over 2 million. In that same year, the "government" of Palestine had $930 mil in revenues, and $2 BILLION in foriegn aid. Seems to me that keeping ones population in poverty IS a good way to make a little extra cash.

    FWIW, the reason that the Palestinian people are experiencing high unemployment is because of the increased restrictions in travel for Palestinians into Isreal due to security concerns. Yet, the man on the street doesn't seem to blame the PLO, Hammas, or homicide bombers; he blames Isreal for the loss of his job. Arrafat IS playing his people as pawns, and they lick his hand and wag their tails for it.

    GinSlinger

    Oh, and as an aside, in 2002 Isreal recieved $730 million in foriegn aid.
     
  9. Keith

    Keith Member

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    Arafat was the leader prior to Oslo and he's the leader now - at least he controls all the instruments of power.
    Terrorists were unhindered by Arafat prior to Oslo, and they remain unhindered by him today.
    Arafat controlled the economic aid that poured in after Oslo - the aid that was supposed to build irrigation systems, power, roads and other economic infrastructure. The money is gone and none of these things exist.
    The Palestinians lived in camps prior to Oslo, and they live in camps today despite the land and money given Araft to change that situation.

    Arafat is the problem. Not Israel.

    Keith
     
  10. 2dogs

    2dogs Member

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    The 2dogs peace plan:

    1. Offer all Palestinians who wish to live in peace as productive Israeli citizens the chance to do so.

    2. Offer those who don't want to take option #1 a one way ticket to whichever stone age sandpit of an Arab country they want.

    3. Give those who refuse option #1 or option #2 a "roadmap" and a one way ticket to hell.


    The country is Israel- the Palestinians have had their chance at peace and a state, and rejected it all for murder. They deserve nothing, have earned nothing- it's time for Israel TO GET RID OF THEM one way or another.

    Wars are fought as a last resort until there is a winner and a loser, winner take all. That's how it's always been- it's way past time.



    :fire: :(
     
  11. Keith

    Keith Member

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    Why would any nation choose to open immigration to people who have been killing them for 50 years? In fact, the Palestinians would promptly swamp the country and it would in effect, become "Palestine". They'd probably vote to expel all the Jewish citizens.

    The Palestinians have their own land. Let them kill Arafat and his cronies and make something out of it, as Israel has done with its land.

    Keith
     
  12. 2dogs

    2dogs Member

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    Keith

    I meant any already living within Israel- not the "right of return".:)
     
  13. Duncan Idaho

    Duncan Idaho member

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    The 2dogs plan suits me fine.

    Ag, if it would make you feel any better, I'll see if I can talk the IDF into making the terrorist scumbags only "moderately" dead. :rolleyes:

    I'd say more, but that would just upset Oleg, and you aren't worth it.
     
  14. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    Ultimately this is a chicken-egg problem. Each side can always point to something the other side did or said as an excuse for whatever retaliation they take. Heck, my experience in Bosnia and Macedonia leads me to belive that people will go back any arbitrary distance in time to find justifications for killing people they don't like in the here and now, and when that fails will just make up random crap. Your typical prole will believe anything you invent that reinforces their own worldview, regardless of how self-evidently stupid it is. Stroke the people's ego and give them somebody to blame and you are in like Flint.

    Excuse me while I really go tangental... the main thing that has always astounded me is how stunningly ineffective the PLO, Hamas, et. al. really are. They've had decades to fight a guerilla war, and have been about as effective at it as a toy poodle on crank. They have all the moral odium, but none of the competence, of a good old fashoned commie insurrection. They may possibly be waging the least decisive major insurgency in all of recorded history. Heck, if the IRA had the resources of the PLO, they would have probably VX-ed 10 Downing Street by now. If the best you can come up with is teeny-boppers throwing rocks and some misplaced Semtex, on some level maybe you don't deserve a country.

    The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a great example of a fundamental truism of war, which is to not persue half-measures. To the people getting killed, they aren't half measures, of course. But the Palestinians' feeble terrorist attacks don't really scare Israel in any sense that matters; they are just dangerous enough to piss them off, but not so effective that they can scare Israel into doing anything. Likewise for the Israelis; their limited offensives against the PLO and Hamas (impose a curfew here, blow up a car witha Hamas dude in it there) are enough to rile up the fruit loops, but not enough to convince them that fighting is really hopeless.

    War only ends when somebody gets hopeless.
     
  15. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    Exactly. This is my point #2.

    Agricola:
    True, perhaps. I'll admit that I'm not up on the current situation. But my point does not rest upon the specifics of what went on this week or the last. And I'll also be the last to claim that Israel is blameless in some of the problems they're encountering.

    My point stands, however, that the stated position of the militant extremists is that Israel must be destroyed, the jews slaughtered or pushed into the sea, and the land must be returned to the palestinians. That is not a minimal position that Israel can accept. Ergo, negotiations are futile.

    The sooner we come to accept this hard truth, the sooner the bloodletting will cease.

    Mike
     
  16. Keith

    Keith Member

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    2dogs, you'd never know it from the frenzied and biased reporting, but Palestinians within Israel already have full citizenship! They vote and elect Palestinians to the Israeli Knesset (congress), own land, businesses, etc.

    Keith
     
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