Israeli Empty Chamber Carry?

[Higgins]

I was reading an article that mentioned Israeli military/intelligence services train to carry a handgun with the chamber emply. A round is then chambered upon drawing the pistol.

What is the rationale behind doing this? Safety? I can understand this if carrying, say, a High Power where cocked-n-locked with just the thumb safety may present AD concerns. But with the availability of firing pin safeties, da/sa operation, and an additional manual safety on top of that making hammer down on a loaded chamber fairly safe, why continue to carry empty chamber, even on say Sig P226s, which the article said Israelis also use?

Seems like the delay in putting the weapon in firing condition - drawing, racking the slide, taking aim - would present a concern counterbalancing or outweighing concerns over carrying safely with a loaded chamber. Or are the situations where such delay is a concern just not that common?

Would you or do you consider carrying empty chamber to be a satisfactory mode of carrying?

 

[Waxed Canvas]

They carry now for the most part, Glock 19's and 17's. I do the same when toting a Glock. You should see the technique in action. It is quite interesting.

Sigs or Rugers or Berettas are a different story.

 

[B27]

No.
Carrying a gun in a condition that requires BOTH hands to make it ready to fire is unwise in the extreme and to be avoided if at all possible, IMHO.
For some reason many think that if the Israelis do it, it must be smart.

If ten thousand people do a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.

 

[borodin]

If your weapon is taken away from you then an empty chamber would give you some time to recover perhaps.

As someone on another thread stated, we all act as though we will eventually end up in a gun fight in our lives. Most likely we will never have to draw on anyone. If we do...the mere presentation of a firearm is enough to give someone pause. Of course, many of the folks here dont feel comfortable unless they are cocked and locked. For them, thats great. For me, I dont feel comfortable unless my pipe is cold.

Another reason I do it is to dry fire as much as possible, but of course this doesnt work well with a striker fired such as a Glock.

Just my two cents

 

[Jim Watson]

I have read that the technique was developed because in the early days in Israel, there was no standardization of guns. They had a wide variety of WW II surplus. It was simplest and safest to teach the Condition 3 carry when you did not know just what make, model, and action type somebody would be carrying. Now? Well, it is Policy, don'cha know?

 

[natedog]

The needs of a military unit are completly different than the needs of a civilian on the streets or a police officer. In the military, a handgun is the last resort, drawn when you have a malfuction, you run out of ammo, your primary gets destroyed/taken away, etc. Also, when drawing a handgun in the military you have a whole team of guys watching your back while you do so.

 

[faustulus]

What Jim said.
If you have a myriad of different guns and wanted on technique which would be sure to get them all into action what would you choose. Now it is just policy.

 

[arinvolvo]

It would also be a good idea for issuance of firearms to ill-trained servicemen...keep down the ADs..

but i dont think the isrealites are ill trained.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Ever watch the movie ' the sword of Guidien' (sp?)? Good flick.

 

[c_yeager]

Werent our GI's trained to carry their 1911s in condition three for a VERY long time? In fact were they ever trained differently on the 1911 platform?

 

[Obiwan]

I saw a blurb by a member of their armed forces that stated the practice originated because of the relatively poor quality of the weapons they had available in the early years

This soldier was uncertain WHY it still continued.

IMHO if you are not comfartable carrying your weapon of choice with a round chambered...then choose a different weapon..YMMV

 

[Walt Sherrill]

You have to keep in mind that many of the Israelis who carry this way are often working in undercover roles, in crowds, etc. And virtually all of them who carry this way are highly skilled/trained martial artists.

That level of physical, hand-to-hand skills is what makes the difference.

 

[Shootcraps]

I don't have the training that the Israelis have, so their methods aren't applicable.

Condition one, cocked and locked is the best for me.

 

[longeyes]

The assumption that you will have a) enough time to rack your slide or b) the ability to employ two hands in a street confrontation is unwarranted. I wouldn't take that chance. If attacked you will have to deploy FAST.

Are we to assume that Israelis entering a known combat zone are carrying, pistol or long gun, with empty chambers? I doubt that.

 

[Black Snowman]

"entering a known combat zone" isn't the same as carrying. When "entering a known combat zone" I would hope they have a longarm with with a chambered round and a have a loaded round in the handgun just in case.

In day to day carry the speed of C&L may not offset the precieved risk of carrying a chambered round for a group of people who normally are repsonding to events and going into harms way rather than responding to a direct attack on themselves.

When I get to legally CCW, it's going to be cocked and locked

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Actually, I've seen a couple of training films showing the Israelis using their technique -- which, as noted, requires two hands.

This technique has been widely used in very close quarters, in crowds, etc., where the operatives in question may be in civilian clothing, dressed like the other natives, working hard to remain inconspicuous.

I think most of these folks COULD easily use both hands, regardless of the situation -- short of being shot in the offhand or offshoulder.

And while I'd never want to have to develop the proficiency needed, and I doubt I could ever be fast enough, don't pooh-pooh just how fast this method of carry can be.

(That's not to say that other methods couldn't be faster. But, balanced against their concern about not having their own weapon used against them, it makes sense.)

 

[fix]

Another reason I do it is to dry fire as much as possible

You dry fire with a loaded mag in the gun???

 

[Waxed Canvas]

I have seen some Israeli Units packing 1911 cocked and locked as they enter tunnels used by the PLO on ABC's NIGHTLINE fwiw.

One guy here hit the nail on the head. If you don't feel comfortable with a given handgun being loaded; don't carry it which is exactly why I no longer own Glocks. 'Not trying to start a war, just telling you my sentiments on the subject.

 

[stevelyn]

If your weapon is taken away from you, then an empty chamber will give you time to recover.

If your weapon is taken away from you, you screwed up by not shooting soon enough or keeping enough distance between you and the threat. Chances are you are no longer in any condition to get it back. An empty chamber is only going to delay your getting dirt shoveled on you by a few seconds at best.

Soldier of Fortune did a story on the "Israeli Technique" several months ago. The technique seems to stem from some ex-marine with no particularly qualifiying credentials, blowing great billowy clouds of smoke up the Israelis arses as a trainer and them buying off on it. This trainer never had any training other than what the Corps taught him and he resorted to teaching what he learned from how he was trained.
I'm just curious to what the "Israeli Technique" would be if the trainers were Gunsite, Frontsight, LFI, or Thunder Ranch instructors.

 

[George Hill]

WHOA - WHOA - WHOA!!!!!

Another reason I do it is to dry fire as much as possible

You have GOT to be kidding.
NO FREAKING WAY SHOULD THIS BE DONE WITH A LOADED MAGAZINE IN THE GUN.
This is an accident waiting to happen. If you want to dry fire - fine... go for it. But for the love of Pete.... TAKE THE MAGAZINE OUT OF THE GUN!

:banghead:

 

[B27]

borodin may mean that he does that to avoid having to eject the round before dry firing and thus avoids the whole rechambering the same round repeatedly/bullet setback situation.
I don't think we can assume he's dry firing with a loaded mag in the gun.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

stevelyn wrote:

If your weapon is taken away from you, you screwed up by not shooting soon enough or keeping enough distance between you and the threat. Chances are you are no longer in any condition to get it back. An empty chamber is only going to delay your getting dirt shoveled on you by a few seconds at best.

In theory, I agree with your reasoning, but know it isn't always THAT simple. If you're trying to move through a crowded marketplace inconspicuously, whatchagonna do, just start blazing away?

Do you really think Israeli operatives, people who probably have more real-world experience in the type of shooting than anyone, could be so easily fooled by a semi-qualified "ex"-Marine? (I know, I know, there are not Marines.)

Don't read too much SOF magazine -- it'll warp your perspective.

 

[Cosmoline]

I can see using the Israeli Presentation with SA only pistols, since I detest safeties and refuse to use them except when ejecting live rounds, clearing jams, etc. A decocker is much more sensible.

OTOH I really don't see the point if you have a DA/SA pistol with a good trigger pull. In that case it functions like a revolver and there's no need for either a safety or the Israeli Presentaiton.

 

[Redhat]

It isn't just the Israeli's who do this, don't forget the US Army uses the "Draw/Rack/Fire technique with the M9. Air Force types carry it round in chamber decocked and on fire. The Army guys cringe at that!

 

[George Hill]

"the US Army uses the "Draw/Rack/Fire technique with the M9."

Not while I was in. Has this changed or is this a Unit thing?
Sounds like it's just a way to overcome poor training.