Israeli Empty Chamber Carry?

[TBeck]

I read an article last year on an Israeli pistolcraft class for civilians who had little experience with handguns. Holsters were mandatory and no mention was made of an empty chamber. Since part of the class dealt with firing from the driver's seat of a car I strongly doubt condition 3 carry was being taught.

What really raised my eyebrows was the tactical doctrine that advocated shooting the terrorist in the head after they were down on the ground. It makes sense given that terrorist fashion sense runs to Semtex belts and a downed man can still push a button. Nonetheless it brought home the disparity between our threat level and Israel's

 

[Waitone]

Whaddya do if your off hand is injured, missing, wounded or weak?

 

[TBeck]

Grab the rear slide serrations with your teeth.

 

[natedog]

It is possible to rack the slide one handed, by holding the slide with your hand and pushing the grip against your leg. Also, I think if you exerted enough force you could rack the slide if you held the pistol vertical and jerked your hand down and stopped.

 

[TBeck]

If you do that more than three times you are playing with it!

 

[M2 Carbine]

"borodin quote,
As someone on another thread stated, we all act as though we will eventually end up in a gun fight in our lives. Most likely we will never have to draw on anyone. If we do...the mere presentation of a firearm is enough to give someone pause. Of course, many of the folks here dont feel comfortable unless they are cocked and locked. For them, thats great. For me, I dont feel comfortable unless my pipe is cold."


If you believe this it will as likely get you hurt as not.

In no fewer than three times "the mere presentation of a firearm" got me an offer to take that gun away from me and stick it up my a**.

Some people will run away but some will take your empty chamber useless pistol away from you and knock your head off with it.


BTW, two of the three offers was when I was a Police Officer.

 

[natedog]

That was uncalled for, TBeck

 

[Shootcraps]

>>In no fewer than three times "the mere presentation of a firearm" got me an offer to take that gun away from me and stick it up my a**.

Some people will run away but some will take your empty chamber useless pistol away from you and knock your head off with it.<<


I agree. You should not depend on the sight of your gun to stop an encounter. You may have won the @sshole lottery and be up against some idiot with nothing to lose.

In fact, if we come into a situation where it's necessary to make it known we have a gun, it should be in the context of "draw, unlock, prepare". Or whatever it's called. But maybe that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Gabe]

I'm reminded of the movie "The Shootist" where John Wayne carries 5 in his 6-shooter for safety. The kid asks him what happens if there's gonna be a gunfight, and he says "well load another one if your gut tells ya to."

The Israeli carry doesn't mean you never carry one in the chamber, just that's the default carry and you better learn how to rack and fire if caught by surprise. Stay alert and if there's doubt, take your gun out and chamber it.

 

[rbernie]

Quote of The Week

Courtesy of Walt:

Don't read too much SOF magazine -- it'll warp your perspective.

 

[Cthulhu]

Also, I think if you exerted enough force you could rack the slide if you held the pistol vertical and jerked your hand down and stopped.

Anyone taking bets?

 

[George Hill]

Sure... if you could exert 400 pounds of force doing it.

 

[Series 70]

I'm reminded of the movie "The Shootist" where John Wayne carries 5 in his 6-shooter for safety.

This comes from the days when there was no firing pin; the primer was struck directly by a spur on the hammer. There were no transfer bar safeties to keep the hammer away from the cartridge. In those days, it *was* a safety issue.

Unfortunately, that rule is one that survived the design changes that incorporated safeties and firing pins, obviating the need to keep an empty chamber under the hammer. Since it is mechanically impossible, barring breakage, for the hammer of a modern revolver to strike the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled, there is no reason to short yourself one round.

Likewise, a self-loader, properly carried with the appropriate safeties engaged, will not fire unless you take the required action.

Now, I'm not going to tell you how to carry your sidearm, no more than I'd tell you how to cook your steak or what kind of beer to drink. But you might want to consider that the design of the firearms under which this rule came about are not the design of the firearms we generally carry.

 

[Erik]

Another "what Jim Watson said" comment.

 

[Erik]

"You have to keep in mind that many of the Israelis who carry this way are often working in undercover roles, in crowds, etc. And virtually all of them who carry this way are highly skilled/trained martial artists.

That level of physical, hand-to-hand skills is what makes the difference."

I don't buy this line of thought for a moment.

Beware anytime someone justifies seemingly poor habits, tactics, training methods...whatever... by one's nationality, military or LEO status, status with the local ninja mall clan, whether or not they slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and perhaps most of all by anything linked to the martial arts.

 

[TBeck]

The best explanation I have heard has already been mentioned here. Somebody feel free to chime in if I am offbase. Spposedly, relatively few Israelis actually own guns. Most are checked out of the local police station. You walk in and get the pick of whatever is there. Forget holsters. Under those conditions waistband carry makes sense. And since the weapon may be a relic from WW2 or the '48 war of independence there is no telling what kind of mechanical safeties there are, how they operate, or how well they operate. No holster+unfamiliar manual of arms=chamber empty carry. I'll bet the pros carry cocked and locked. Can you imagine Sharon's bodyguard taking a precious second to chamber a round at the perception of a threat? No way.

 

[Redhat]

George Hill,

The MP's I used to work with weren't allowed to carry a round in the chamber of their M9's.

Where, when and with what type of weapon did you carry that way?

Thanks

 

[10mmman]

Don't that change a handgun into a handsgun?

If I have to use two hands to run it, I'm opting for something biggern' a pistol!

Defeats the whole concept in my mind.

Besides, just like in all them moving picture shows - Them fellers always have to have the off hand free to hold a damsel in distress.

To each there own.

X

 

[another48hrs]

I thought the Israelis racked the slide by using the Jericho's "big bunny ear" sights and catching it on their belts?

 

[d906670]

from 1980 t0 1987 when i was an mp we were not aloud to carry cocked and lock( have 3 letters of repermand because of it) it was the rule at every duty station I was at.