Israeli Special Forces? None in the pipe?

[Cosmoline]

They think we're all insane for going cocked and locked

The IDF and Israeli security forces use the aptly named Israeli Presentation, which has the user rack the slide while drawing and aiming the firearm. With practice it's just as quick as any other method.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

With practice it's just as quick as any other method.

This never made sense to me. How can doing 3 steps be as fast as doing 2? Couldn't an Israeli fire even faster with a loaded chambeR?

 

[Cosmoline]

The photos I've seen of the presentation show the off hand racking the slide as it's moving down to support the main hand. It's done in one smooth motion, so by the time the pistol is up and ready, there's a round in the chamber. They ignore safeties completely unless they're clearing the chamber afterwards.

 

[Correia]

Quote:
With practice it's just as quick as any other method.


Yeah, I'm waiting to see Israel's IPSC champions do this.

 

[Navy joe]

All extra movements take extra time.

All extra movements introduce extra chances for error.

Correia,
I've seen Saul Kirsch shoot, he seems to be starting with the highly dangerous loaded chamber.

The Israelis have something that works for them, a lowest common denominator training method to apply to various pistols and user skill levels. The fact that it works out for them probably has a lot to do with the fact that the IDF prefers to fight with tanks, bulldozers, fighter jets, etc, long before they whip out the sidearms. The Israelis have a well deserved fighting reputation for tenacity because they have persevered with their backs to the wall for 50 years. Unfortunately that has translated into everyone whipping out their prayer rugs and aiming them at the tactical altar everytime someone says "Israeli" on a gun board. It's an incompletely loaded pistol, not magic.

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't want to get into the position of defending the technique. Frankly I must admit it's far from ideal. Not so much because of the extra movement but because of the chance of snagging clothes in the open breach or otherwise fudging the operation in your haste.

But consider this, as well. I don't know too many folks over in IDF land who use handguns for anything more than backup protection for use only after their rifle or carbine is empty. Handguns are much, much lower on the totem pole there than in the US. They'd view LEO's entering a dangerous area with mere handguns at the ready as insane. And maybe they're right about that.

 

[38SnubFan]

I've seen the Israeli method, and it is fast; but it DOES leave too much room for error, albeit it could be trained to anyone to use on ANY autoloading handgun.

Still, I prefer mine loaded. Draw, flick safety down and off, pull trigger, BANG!

I guess I've just been around enough handguns too that by sight, I can figure out its manual of arms within seconds.

Which may be why I still like my revolver. Even if the chamber under the hammer is empty, I pull the trigger, it brings a fresh round under the hammer/firing pin, and goes BANG!

To each their own I guess.

-38SnubFan

 

[TheDutchman]

http://defensereview.com/1_31_2004/kareen.mov

 

[E.C.]

I have been caring many types of handguns and have used the Israeli system for the last thirty years. Most of the Israeli cops and soldiers carry 7/24/365. The normal carry condition is magazine inserted in the handgun but not in the long guns, chamber empty. That is the way they carry their M16/Galil/Uzi and handguns.
When condition switches to Orange and Red the guns are in their hands with a loaded chamber. In case of imminent combat the safety is off.
From the average cop/citizen point of view, the self-defense scenarios are VERY DIFERENT from the American ones. There is very little armed violent crime there. Very, very seldom a cop is attacked or shoot by a criminal. The main concern is terror and that is the main reason soldiers carry their rifle off-duty, and citizens got their handgun permits.
The need for a cop or citizen to be ready for a surprise shootout with a criminal is very rare and in most cases it makes little difference for the common Israeli citizen or cop if he deploys his gun in 1.2 sec by using condition 1 or 1.6 sec by using condition 3. They are more concern about safety wile traveling by public transportations, in schools, factories, malls, on the street, etc.
Regarding the Special Forces, etc, the Israeli military seldom if at all use handguns. The Anti Terror trained operators use mainly long guns but if they have to use a hand gun during an operation, the handgun will be in hand, ready to fire. They do carry handguns as back up or for special purposes.
In any case, those guys are trained to deploy the handgun, Israeli style, very fast.

Regarding the IPSC/IDPA matches, the most common condition is condition 1. This is true in USA as it is in Israel.

I do agree that the typical American self-defense scenarios are different and require a cop or the average citizens carrying a handgun, to adapt his tactics and caring methods in order to properly deal with the threats relevant to her/him. That may include carrying a semiautomatic in condition one.