Issues with new S&W 500 PC (Large Pics)

[nofishbob]

Hi Guys-

I just took home a new S&W 500 10.5" Performance Center revolver. I have wanted one of these for a long time.

After the initial excitement wore off, I noticed a few minor issues with this revolver.

The trigger stop looks to be a roll pin that has been ground off crudely so that the grinding wheel hit the back of the trigger. In its current configuration, the trigger stop does not touch the frame when the trigger is in the rearmost position. Here's a pic, note also the general rough finish and sharp corners:

[/IMG]


The next problem might not be a problem from a functional standpoint, but it shows a lack of care during assembly: The cutouts on the compensator are not aligned with the barrel. Here's a pic, also showing the homemade -looking front sight paint:

[/IMG]

I am not really against MIM parts, but I thought that the PC guns had reduced usage of MIM. At least the cylinder stop (Bolt?) is MIM: see the obvious part line on this pic:

[/IMG]

And finally, there are edges and corners on this revolver that are razor sharp.
I plan to gently relieve these to keep the blood and Hoppe's separate while cleaning.

This is my first S&W. I was hoping that it would have general workmanship better than my Rugers. Was I hoping for too much here? In your opinion, would the trigger stop be something that should be addressed by S&W? I would not send it in for the other cosmetic items.

Thanks for looking at this. I am just a little down right now

Bob

 

[DFM914]

I would certainly be upset as well especially with a Performance Center revolver. I would expect it to be of a much finer fit and finish. I would contact Smith & Wesson and let them know how you feel. Just got a new Ruger GP100 a few months ago and the finish is close to perfect for a production type revolver. Nice gun otherwise!

 

[earlthegoat2]

Welcome to the world of modern Smith and Wesson manufacturing. If you are really unhappy I am sure S&W will make it right for you.

Caveat emptor even with new guns nowadays. Since I have never bought a new gun though I give every gun I buy a good look through.

 

[BCRider]

The trigger touch to the grinding wheel is a bit sad. Equally so the compesator. Not only are the openings not centered but it looks like the whole compensator is shifted to the right.

As for the sight I thought that they used the read "fibre" light gathering insert? Not just some dab of paint.

The MIM cylinder stop is fine but on a PC gun I would have thought that the mold line would have been polshed smooth so it didn't tend to wear the line around the cylinder so quickly.

All in all if this is their idea of acceptable PC custom work then I'm afraid there's not much to recomend S&W any more. We're paying a premium and not even getting average work.

 

[forindooruseonly]

Knowing what those go for, I'd definitely call and see if they would make it right. If my PC 629 had those issues when I bought it I would be sorely disappointed with it as well.

 

[HelterSkelter]

you just talked me out of buying a s&w 500 lol. tiny problems with guns drive me crazy, tiny like ejector rod rattle when i'm shaking my gun like a tamborine (had to try to get it to rattle so it would make me mad, doesn't make sense does it?) or a slightly crooked (maybe 2-3 degrees) trigger on my 22. what happened to your 500 would probably kill me.

the grinding wheel is almost forgivable except that it's a performance center gun and should be held to a much higher standard, the pawl ( i think that's what they call it) being MIM is forgivable since i don't think that would affect performance much. the compensator being crooked is RIDICULOUS. that not only looks terrible but will cause your gun to jerk sideways a little bit, those things need to be perfectly up and down.

 

[Stainz]

Call them - they will send you a return label - and make you happy. I've bought a few old, but mostly new production - including the two PC627 UDR's from last year. My one safe-queen from '83 was horrid - and the only one that came dysfunctional. The problems I've had with '01 on new S&W's is a squished end extractor rod spring - and the the poor-fitting Eagle boots that came on both UDR's last year. I don't still have them all, of course, but I could think of 21 new S&W revolvers I have purchased since 8/02 - and a few used ones. No QC issues, other than the squishy feeling on my 696's ejector rod - they sent me that spring gratis - and the boot grips on last year's UDR's - which they swapped. As far as the trigger stop - my perfect '01 vintage 5" JM PC627 V-Comp even had the ground-in-place roll pin, like the op's .500 - and both of my PC627 UDR's. At least you know the trigger is forged, if it has the roll pin in there.

Why did I get rid of my 'perfect' JM PC627? Three years ago this May I bought a new 627 Pro, resplendent with it's MIM parts & IL, but also having a spring-loaded front sight, a la the 625JM, which allowed quick sight changes - try to find something to fit that JM PC627's dovetail! Then there is the balance of the 627 Pro - much more fun to plink with, although that JM PC627 was the finest SS revover I ever owned. I bought another PC627 UDR with it's moola... much happier now.

So - to sum up - not every one has had poor results with new S&W's - many are happy. Give S&W a shot at correcting your .500's problems - just be sure to list them all carefully in your letter included with the revolver. Good luck.

Stainz

PS I originally owned Rugers - but got tired of their QC issues. Not every one has good luck with every gun, no matter the make.

 

[Just One Shot]

I was at my favorite gun store Tues. night. One of the guys was telling me of a new M&P .45 full size that one of their customers purchased. When he got it home and removed it from the box he notice a scratch in the slide. Not in the finish, in the metal its self.

The guy called S&W and told them of the problem. Their response was, it's probably within their acceptable guidlines and that he should try to rub a little Hoppe's in it.

 

[18DAI]

Yes, you were hoping for too much.

The current company masquerading as S&W is not your daddy's S&W.

They are trying to capitalize on a famous trademark by laser etching it on junk. My opinion. YMMV.

I hope their stock continues to tank and they are purchased by a company that will make useable guns that aren't ugly.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I hope their stock continues to tank and they are purchased by a company that will make useable guns that aren't ugly.

More likely a company like Cerberus will buy them. Yikes.

 

[nofishbob]

Thanks for your replies.

I called S&W a few minutes ago.

I asked them, calmly and politely, if the delivery condition of this revolver is what they consider to be normal. I was told emphatically "NO!".

They are sending me a label, with turnaround quoted to be 3 to 4 weeks.

I will hope for the best!

Bob

 

[hardluk1]

nofishbob In your picture of the comp and front site it looks as if the machineing for the site in the ramp is also off center to the left. S&W does not build with the quility they once used . Check your cylinder gap too. Production gap can run from 6 to 10th's ( unexceptable in years gone by) and custom shop is suppose to be from 4 to 6 th's.

 

[BCRider]

The sight and some of what looks to be a really off center compensator may be the camer angle. But you're right hardluk, the sight does look like it's kicked to the left a little in the picture. Just not sure if it's the angle and shadows or not.

 

[nofishbob]

After the above suggestions, I have determined that the front sight is indeed off center. It fits in a dovetail, and dovetail portion of the sight base is centered in the barrel. The sight blade, however, is NOT centered in its dovetail base. It looks home made by a sloppy worker...how do you cast a sight with the blade off center?

Oh well-another thing to add to the list.

With all of the external issues on this revolver, I am not optimistic about how well things are assembled and fitted on the inside, where it really counts.

Bob

 

[hardluk1]

Do check that cylinder gap to see if it is between 4 and 6th's. Smith ain't what they use to be . Gun cost to much and quality should be impeccable for the cost they charge.

 

[Hondo 60]

I am saddened almost to the point of tears to see what has become of S&W.
My older Smiths are just so darn near perfect!

Now a days I won't buy a new one.
My last 3 new guns were 2 Rugers & a Uberti.

I hope they make it right, but especially a PC gun just shouldn't have the issues you're seeing.

 

[fireside44]

The trigger stop looks to be a roll pin that has been ground off crudely so that the grinding wheel hit the back of the trigger. In its current configuration, the trigger stop does not touch the frame when the trigger is in the rearmost position. Here's a pic, note also the general rough finish and sharp corners

Sorry to hear that. This is usually why I shy away from Taurus and Rossi products....er, I mean, uh.....uhhhhhhh......

 

[buck460XVR]

Thanks for your replies.

I called S&W a few minutes ago.

I asked them, calmly and politely, if the delivery condition of this revolver is what they consider to be normal. I was told emphatically "NO!".

They are sending me a label, with turnaround quoted to be 3 to 4 weeks.

I will hope for the best!

Bob

Bob...I think S&W will do right for you.

Did you shoot the gun? If so, how did it shoot?

Cosmetically, the quality of ALL mass produced firearms has gone down. Mechanically, most new firearms are better than ever. The cosmetics of the last three new guns I've purchased are much worse than yours.....and none of them was a S&W. On my new Ruger 77/44, the grinding marks on the bolt look like it fell off the truck and slid down the highway. The front sight is canted also. But I put a scope on it and the gun shoots accurately, the action is smooth and it seems reliable and solid. All you can ask from a hunting rifle. A coupla years in the bush and the cosmetics will be lost to age and patina. X-Frames are not meant to be pretty......they are meant to shoot big-azz bullets. Believe me, they do this well. They are not meant to be have a little black dress put on them and taken out to a fancy restaurant for dinner, they are meant to be beat up while hauled around the woods killing things. Trust me, by the time you get used to hunting with it, it will have enough marks on it that the grinding marks on the trigger will be unnoticeable. As for MIM parts, get used to them.....they are gonna be around for a while and their use IS gonna increase. When manufactured properly and used in the right components, they are reliable and precise. This is the reason that most modern major manufacturers of firearms use them. If they didn't work, Colt, S&W, Kimber and others would not stake their reputation on them. They are not the cause of the drag lines on your cylinder. This is a standard for S&W DA revolvers......before and after MIM. Just the nature of the beast. Besides, after a few hundred rounds, you wont even see the drag lines next to the flash burns on the front of the cylinder. Like the drag lines, one can polish them off, but why? Funny how many can accept Ruger's cast pot metal frames, but get their undies in a bundle when someone else uses MIM components. Cast frames, like MIM components are perfectly fine when done right.

I say go shoot you X-Frame and put a smile on your face. Ain't that the reason you bought it? I consider the small cosmetic defects in all my guns like the freckles or birthmarks on the woman I've had over the years...........in other words, think of those drag lines as a tramp stamp.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I really think this is another example of a company making their product to the cheapest and fastest possible specifications and if a few bad ones go through then that is an acceptable loss to repair it under warranty.

 

[jeepmor]

In engineering quality control, this is what we call an escape. When this happens in my module (solar ingot grinding) I have to conduct an investigation and explain to management what happened. The common denominator I typically encounter is that we don't pay our labor above the poverty line and this is what you get for it, lazy people with a lack of attention to detail or some supervisor worried more about numbers (outs) than quality.

We preach safety, quality and output in that order, but it's usually output, output, oh yeah, safety....hope the quality is okay.

I have this push pull argument with them all the time and I rarely win. Rest assured there are solid work plans, specs and instructions in place to catch things like this. Its the people not doing their job that allows these to escape and it erodes the customer's satisfaction same as it does here. America needs to focus on quality at the real level and not the lip service level of the management. Sure, it has to start in management, but management has to have the cojones to fire the people who won't comply with the quality specs and set the example.


Seeing Solar come into America, I can say this, quality really sucks as it's a commodities market and the operations management only gives a crap about their numbers and tends to blame all their quality issues on engineering. In my experience, as the engineer specifying product quality, specs, and tool related issues. PMs, maintenance and tool monitoring, I can clearly state that I don't have many holes in my system. It's not bulletproof but I am constantly upgrading and improving the system. The holes in my system are the people most of the time not following the procedures I've laid out for them. Same instance here. You can bet your hiney that there is a procedure that was missed on this gun. And you have every right in the world to be upset about considering you bought a top tier product.

IMO, you should be calling someone and really laying into them regarding quality. You have to be loud about quality or it will continually degrade and become the new norm. Trust me on this one, I deal with it every day. And that said, when I get guys that produce quality work, I go out of my way to get them recognized, fruitless as it may be.

 

[Onmilo]

What you are experiencing is a policy that S&W seems to have on the books for some time now.
A standard operating procedure for conduct of their trade and business practices.
Get the product out the door where it can generate immediate profits.
Fix it later when and if the customer complains.

They have a GREAT Customer Service Department.
They NEED to have a Great Customer Service Department to stay in business in my most humble opinion.

Frankly it is a disturbing trend in American business practices that now seems so prevelant in many areas now.

 

[General Geoff]

That's kind of sad that a brand new PC wheelgun would have sharp, unfinished edges. My circa 2008 610-3 (non-PC) revolver was practically flawless out of the box, beveled cylinder edges and all.

 

[nofishbob]

Thanks for all of your replies.

Is there a real down side to shooting this revolver before sending it back to S& W?

As I see it:

Pro-1. get to actually shoot the gun after anticipating it for months.
2. Confirm that there are no function problems before sending it in.

Con- 1. I loose the perfect "this is just the way it cam from S&W" argument.

Bob

 

[earlthegoat2]

Just send it back I would say.

S&W turnaround is pretty good of late.

Look at it this way. You can say you got your gun just as S&W should have sent it. Its going to come back factory fresh hopefully. S&W will more than likely shoot it again to verify function anyway. They already have before they shipped it initially.

 

[Waywatcher]

Definitely send it back.

Once the seed has been planted in your head that you need to send it back, it's going to drive you nuts until you do. At least it does me.

Besides, this way, to be perfectly technically correct, it will still be "just the way it came from S&W."