It’s nice when Hollywood gets it right

[nofendertom]

In an old Jimmy Cagney movie he is shooting a 1911---the scene cuts to the bad guys---then back to Cagney and now he is shooting a revolver.

 

[Terry G]

I don't let it ruin the film but I do notice the firearm screw up's. Sometimes they get the gun right but the actor or actress just hasn't been trained to handle the gun and it's kind of funny. I recall a Chuck Norris film supposedly in Viet Nam. Chuck's a full Colonel and has hair over his ear's, a full beard, and wear's an Aussie type hat. Right. One scene has him running with an M-16 (they got that right) and he's carrying it like it's a 2X4 that he's offering to someone. The NVA look like and are uniformed like WWII Japanese Soldiers. I enjoy his movies, but really.

 

[Outlaw75]

My favorite part is in old westerns, when they shoot their guns, it's like they try to fling the bullet out of the barrel. At that rate they probably get more birds out of the air than bad guys.

Hey! It's a legitimate technique! Christopher Moltisanti used it to great effect all throughout The Sopranos!

 

[Armybrat]

My favorite part is in old westerns, when they shoot their guns, it's like they try to fling the bullet out of the barrel. At that rate they probably get more birds out of the air than bad guys.

That was Jingles’ style of shooting in the Wild Bill Hickok series with Guy Madison.

 

[buck460XVR]

Sorry, I hate to be that guy, but historical accuracy was the crux of the initial post......

Oh, I know. Kudos for you for settin' all of us straight. For me, I look at all movies and T.V. as fiction and make believe, unless it is a true documentary. Thus what they shoot or how many times they shoot it before reloading is a moot point. Many times those details just get in the way. I'm of the mind that most producers think it's moot too, and is why we see so many mistakes. They are more worried about the chase scene and the blood splatter than the correct firearm for the period. They know the majority of folks won't notice and nowadays, those that do, will just promote the movie on social media. I sometimes wonder if they don't do some of these things on purpose just so folks will post threads about it and thus, others that read those threads will have to go and watch the movie again....just to see the mistake.

Being in construction for most of my life, many times, I see details that tell me I'm looking at a prop or set and not a real house/room. Doesn't take away from the entertainment value. How about the hot chick wearing revealing and inappropriate clothing? In real life, those attributes would be falling out of that top as she runs and chases down the BG and gives him a drop kick to the face. Funny, not a lot of guys complain about that. Remember the old westerns when they filmed on stage and the clouds in the background never changed or moved? How about the heroine that just had a life saving operation after being involved in a buildong explosion, but still has full make-up on, including perfect eye shadow?

Nah.....IMHO, life is too short to worry about such trivial things. Besides.....I like it when Scarlett dresses up as the Black Widow. For some reason, what guns she has strapped to her are the least of my concerns.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Oh, I know. Kudos for you for settin' all of us straight. For me, I look at all movies and T.V. as fiction and make believe, unless it is a true documentary. Thus what they shoot or how many times they shoot it before reloading is a moot point. Many times those details just get in the way. I'm of the mind that most producers think it's moot too, and is why we see so many mistakes. They are more worried about the chase scene and the blood splatter than the correct firearm for the period. They know the majority of folks won't notice and nowadays, those that do, will just promote the movie on social media. I sometimes wonder if they don't do some of these things on purpose just so folks will post threads about it and thus, others that read those threads will have to go and watch the movie again....just to see the mistake.

Being in construction for most of my life, many times, I see details that tell me I'm looking at a prop or set and not a real house/room. Doesn't take away from the entertainment value. How about the hot chick wearing revealing and inappropriate clothing? In real life, those attributes would be falling out of that top as she runs and chases down the BG and gives him a drop kick to the face. Funny, not a lot of guys complain about that. Remember the old westerns when they filmed on stage and the clouds in the background never changed or moved? How about the heroine that just had a life saving operation after being involved in a buildong explosion, but still has full make-up on, including perfect eye shadow?

Nah.....IMHO, life is too short to worry about such trivial things. Besides.....I like it when Scarlett dresses up as the Black Widow. For some reason, what guns she has strapped to her are the least of my concerns.

I will say I just watched "Black Hawk Down," "Lone Survivor," and "13 Hours" back to back and couldnt call any serious firearms related BS. Plenty of tactical errors, but its tough to see the actors behind cover in the dark, lol. Overall great movies.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Just to keep everybody on the same page, here is a Colt Army Special. It shipped in 1921.






Later on, Colt wanted to have more of a presence in the law enforcement market, so the same revolver was renamed the Official Police.




This is Aline MacMahon holding an actual Henry rifle in the 1955 movie The Man From Laramie, starring James Stewart.






Here is Kevin Costner somehow magically dropping a charging buffalo with an Uberti replica Henry rifle in Dances with Wolves. Which would have been a pretty good trick with the anemic 44 Henry Rimfire round.






And Robert Duvall as Gus McCall about to perform an impossible long range shot with his Uberti replica Henry in Lonesome Dove.






In Winchester '73 Henry rifles are mentioned at least three times in the dialog. And in every instance the rifle being held was plainly a Model 1873 Winchester.






There were no replicas of the Henry rifle being made yet when Winchester 73 was filmed, the standard 'Hollywood Henry' was a Model 1892 Winchester that had the wooden fore stock removed so it kind of resembled a Henry rifle, which also lacked a wooden fore stock. This is a Hollywood Henry said to have belonged to John Wayne. It is a standard Model 1892 Winchester with the wooden fore stock removed. The screw hole at the mid length of the barrel is how the fore stock is attached to an 1892 Winchester.






Of course, the most iconic rifle that shows up in so many old Westerns was the Winchester Model 1892. Here is a young John Wayne holding one in one of the opening scenes from the 1939 film Stagecoach. Why were so many '92s featured in Westerns, even in the wrong era? Because the studios owned lots of them. And you seldom saw a full length 1892 rifle, almost always a carbine. Forget the large loop, completely a Hollywood contrivance.






Through out filming, a couple of different 92's were used by Chuck Connors in TV's The Rifleman. Yes, this one has the phony large loop, put there to make it possible to spin cock the rifle. If you look closely you can see the screw in the lever that tripped the trigger every time the lever was closed, which allowed Connors to fire so quickly. He did not need to touch the trigger, the rifle fired automatically every time the lever was closed.






Here is the silly Mare's Leg that Steve McQueen carried in Wanted Dead or Alive on TV. A standard '92 Winchester with a cut down barrel and stock. Notice the 45-70 cartridges in his belt. This model was mostly chambered for 44-40 or 38-40, but 45-70 rounds look much more impressive in his belt.






Getting back to Winchester '73, the One of One Thousand Model 1873 featured in the movie was actually a standard Model 1873 that the studio sent back to the factory to make it look fancy. Real One of One Thousand Winchesters did not look any different than a standard model, they simply had better barrels and shot better.

Here is a photo of the brass plate inlayed into the stock for the movie.






Here is John McIntire as the crooked gun runner admiring the One of One Thousand Model 1873 that Dutch Henry Brown (Stephen McNally) stole from Lin McAdam (James Stewart). Dutch Henry later shoots the gun runner with a 'Henry' that is clearly a run of the mill Model 1873 Winchester.






Here is a relatively unusual movie rifle. Robert Ryan is holding a Marlin in The Naked Spur. I can't tell if it is a Model 1889 or a Model 1894 because his trigger finger is blocking my view of the part of the lever that is the easiest way to tell the difference between the two models. That's Janet Leigh in the photo with him.






Here is Clint Eastwood firing his cartridge conversion 1858 Remington in Pale Rider.






Here is Clint reloading by dropping a spent cylinder out of the gun and putting in a freshly loaded cartridge cylinder. Although this particular Remington was probably cobbled together by the props department, cartridge conversions of the 1858 Remington were a real thing after the Civil War. They could be loaded and fired much more quickly than a conventional Cap & Ball Remington.






You don't see too many Merwin Hulberts in the movies, but here is Randy Quaid holding one in The Long Riders.






And here is one in the movie Born to Battle, from 1935.






I have one exactly like that. An open top Pocket Army.






Tom Selleck's Sharps in Quigley Down Under was a custom made Sharps. There were actually three of them made for the movie, one with an aluminum barrel so it could be dropped in the dirt without damage. The features of his rifle became so popular that all the current makers of Sharps rifles include a 'Quigley Model' in their current catalogs.






Selleck's 1876 Winchester Centennial was cobbled together from a couple of originals and refinished. Notice the full length fore stock, making it a 'Musket' version.






Here is Arnold Schwarzeneggar in Terminator 2 with his Winchester Model 1887 lever action shotgun. There are replicas being made today, but I suspect this was an original that was cut down and jury rigged for the movie. Notice part of the lever is missing near Arnold's trigger finger. They did not come from the factory like that.






Oh, I could go on and on. Take a look at an old pirate movie sometime. The movie studios used to take Trap Door rifles and cut them down to look like a pistol. The big side hammer could be easily disguised to look like a flint lock, but they were quick and easy to reload with 45-70 blanks rather than take the time to load and prime a flintlock.

Westerns are not made very much these days, but when they are there is usually a good amount of attention paid to getting the firearms correct. But in the halcyon days of Hollywood, a lot of liberties were taken.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

The longer I look at the OPs pic from the Alienist, the more convinced I am that its either a plastic replica or a Spanish copy of the Army Special. The giveaway is what appears to either be a screw head or injection hole on the frame just aft of the crane.

Dont forget the Krag rifles which filled in for Lee-Metfords in "Gunga Din."

 

[Obturation]

Howdy

Just to keep everybody on the same page, here is a Colt Army Special. It shipped in 1921.

View attachment 930533




Later on, Colt wanted to have more of a presence in the law enforcement market, so the same revolver was renamed the Official Police.




This is Aline MacMahon holding an actual Henry rifle in the 1955 movie The Man From Laramie, starring James Stewart.

View attachment 930534




Here is Kevin Costner somehow magically dropping a charging buffalo with an Uberti replica Henry rifle in Dances with Wolves. Which would have been a pretty good trick with the anemic 44 Henry Rimfire round.

View attachment 930535




And Robert Duvall as Gus Mccall about to perform an impossible long range shot with his Uberti replica Henry in Lonesome Dove.

View attachment 930536




In Winchester '73 Henry rifles are mentioned at least three times in the dialog. And in every instance the rifle being held was plainly a Model 1873 Winchester.

View attachment 930537




There were no replicas of the Henry rifle being made yet when Winchester 73 was filmed, the standard 'Hollywood Henry' was a Model 1892 Winchester that had the wooden fore stock removed so it kind of resembled a Henry rifle, which also lacked a wooden fore stock. This is a Hollywood Henry said to have belonged to John Wayne. It is a standard Model 1892 Winchester with the wooden fore stock removed. The screw hole at the mid length of the barrel is how the fore stock is attached to an 1892 Winchester.

View attachment 930538




Of course, the most iconic rifle that shows up in so many old Westerns was the Winchester Model 1892. Here is a young John Wayne holding one in one of the opening scenes from the 1939 film Stagecoach. Why were so many '92s featured in Westerns, even in the wrong era? Because the studios owned lots of them. And you seldom saw a full length 1892 rifle, almost always a carbine. Forget the large loop, completely a Hollywood contrivance.

View attachment 930539




Through out filming, a couple of different 92's were used by Chuck Connors in TV's The Rifleman. Yes, this one has the phony large loop, put there to make it possible to spin cock the rifle. If you look closely you can see the screw in the lever that tripped the trigger every time the lever was closed, which allowed Connors to fire so quickly. He did not need to touch the trigger, the rifle fired automatically every time the lever was closed.

View attachment 930540




Here is the silly Mare's Leg that Steve McQueen carried in Wanted Dead or Alive on TV. A standard '92 Winchester with a cut down barrel and stock. Notice the 45-70 cartridges in his belt. This model was mostly chambered for 44-40 or 38-40, but 45-70 rounds look much more impressive in his belt.

View attachment 930541




Getting back to Winchester '73, the One of One Thousand Model 1873 featured in the movie was actually a standard Model 1873 that the studio sent back to the factory to make it look fancy. Real One of One Thousand Winchesters did not look any different than a standard model, they simply had better barrels and shot better.

Here is a photo of the brass plate inlayed into the stock for the movie.

View attachment 930542




Here is John McIntire as the crooked gun runner admiring the One of One Thousand Model 1873 that Dutch Henry Brown (Stephen McNally) stole from Lin McAdam (James Stewart). Dutch Henry later shoots the gun runner with a 'Henry' that is clearly a run of the mill Model 1873 Winchester.

View attachment 930543




Here is a relatively unusual movie rifle. Robert Ryan is holding a Marlin in The Naked Spur. I can't tell if it is a Model 1889 or a Model 1894 because his trigger finger is blocking my view of the part of the lever that is the easiest way to tell the difference between the two models. That's Janet Leigh in the photo with him.

View attachment 930544




Here is Clint Eastwood firing his cartridge conversion 1858 Remington in Pale Rider.

View attachment 930545




Here is Clint reloading by dropping a spent cylinder out of the gun and putting in a freshly loaded cartridge cylinder. Although this particular Remington was probably cobbled together by the props department, cartridge conversions of the 1858 Remington were a real thing after the Civil War. They could be loaded and fired much more quickly than a conventional Cap & Ball Remington.

View attachment 930546




You don't see too many Merwin Hulberts in the movies, but here is Randy Quaid holding one in The Long Riders.


View attachment 930547




And here is one in the movie Born to Battle, from 1935.

View attachment 930548




Tom Selleck's Sharps in Quigley Down Under was a custom made Sharps. There were actually three of them made for the movie, one with an aluminum barrel so it could be dropped in the dirt without damage. The features of his rifle became so popular that all the current makers of Sharps rifles include a 'Quigley Model' in their current catalogs.

View attachment 930549




Selleck's 1876 Winchester Centennial was cobbled together from a couple of originals and refinished. Notice the full length fore stock, making it a 'Musket' version.

View attachment 930550




Here is Arnold Schwarzeneggar in Terminator 2 with his Winchester Model 1897 shotgun. There are replicas being made today, but I suspect this was an original that was cut down and jury rigged for the movie.

View attachment 930551




Oh, I could go on and on. Take a look at an old pirate movie sometime. The movie studios used to take Trap Door rifles and cut them down to look like a pistol. The big side hammer could be easily disguised to look like a flint lock, but they were quick and easy to reload with 45-70 blanks rather than take the time to load and prime a flintlock.

Westerns are not made very much these days, but when they are there is usually a good amount of attention paid to getting the firearms correct. But in the halcyon days of Hollywood, a lot of liberties were taken.

You never fail to impress !

 

[Terry G]

The longer I look at the OPs pic from the Alienist, the more convinced I am that its either a plastic replica or a Spanish copy of the Army Special. The giveaway is what appears to either be a screw head or injection hole on the frame just aft of the crane.

Dont forget the Krag rifles which filled in for Lee-Metfords in "Gunga Din."

Krags? Are you sure? I thought they were French Lebels.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Krags? Are you sure? I thought they were French Lebels.

Pretty sure. I used to own one. It had RKO Pictures property stamps and was fitted with a blank firing adapter. It was in really rough shape when I got it, but still shot pretty good- once I put sights on it anyway, lol.
http://www.imfdb.org/images/9/91/GungaDin_KragC_02.jpg

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I love it when they get it right.

In The Quick and the Dead (a movie that has a lot of unbelievable stuff), when Court goes into the street for his gunfight he is given an old converted Navy Colt. He runs out of ammo and yells for someone to show him a bullet. He yells for a .38 Long Colt, which is what it would have been. I loved that part.
In this movie they also use a lot of guns other than the Colt SAA. A lot of Westerns have everyone carrying a Colt and that just wasn't the case. There were Remingtons, Smith and Wessons and also a Le Mat revolver. I loved the diversity.

In Hell on Wheels, there is some things they don't get right, like a brass framed 1860 Army, which didn't exist. But one thing they did get right was that in one episode the main character was using Remington Army revolvers and he swapped out the cylinder for a quick reload. That was cool and accurate.

It is nice when some things are realistic. I'm trying to be more open minded though when they get things wrong. It used to completely ruin shows or movies for me. It try not to let that happen now days. These days I can deal with them getting details wrong. It's just when more modern set movies have things that are blatantly anti gun that makes me turn them off.

Like in Longmire. I've heard how great a show it is, but I didn't make it past the first episode.
In episode one someone is killed by a .45-70 and they immediately determine that they're looking for an antique buffalo rifle, as if no one makes a .45-70 anymore. I turned it off and about a year later decided I was being too critical and said I was going to re-visit it. Mere minutes after that, the Sheriff's partner says, "Why would you use an antique gun like that when you can order an AK-47 off the internet?" Done. Turned it off and will never try again. Maybe I'm being crazy, I don't know, but I can't do it.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Theres a cool scene in "Westworld" where Ed Harris has to monologue for, like, four or five minutes while he laboriously reloads his LeMat, lol.

IIRC, "Legionnaire" with JC VanDamme was very accurate with the firearms involved. The guns in the first "Mummy" were pretty good too.

 

[Speedo66]

I wonder how many sets of replica grips were sold after the “3:10 to Yuma” remake?

 

[defjon]

In hellboy 2 the golden army, the agents are exploring the auction house massacre. The open fire on the "tooth fairies ", and look to be using glock 22s maybe.

The male agent has his glock in an interesting hold... Firing with one hand HOLDING THE SLIDE lol.

After that, it was really hard to take the movie about demons and elves and trolls seriously...

 

[Dudemeister]

In Hell on Wheels, there is some things they don't get right, like a brass framed 1860 Army, which didn't exist. But one thing they did get right was that in one episode the main character was using Remington Army revolvers and he swapped out the cylinder for a quick reload. That was cool and accurate.

Actually, that gun was supposed to be a stand in for a Griswold and Gunnison, they actually mention it in the show.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Actually, that gun was supposed to be a stand in for a Griswold and Gunnison, they actually mention it in the show.
View attachment 931063

I knew about the Griswold.

I was talking about this one, obviously an 1860 copy with a brass frame. Maybe they couldn't find a Griswold copy and used this instead, I don't know. He carried a Remington at times too, his guns changed a few times.

 

[SwampWolf]

If you watch "true crime" tv shows much, you'll see everything wrong you can think of. Not uncommon to see swat teams and individual officers armed with air guns. Once, I even saw an officer carrying a Red Ryder bb gun. The production crew speeds up the action when bogus "guns" are being implemented but most of us can rewind the footage and watch the fraudulent guns in slo-mo. The wrongness of the props can inject inappropriate "comedy" into otherwise serious and sad scenes.

 

[crestoncowboy]

"Lone Survivor,"

Other than every SEAL carrying a Beretta when the real guys carried Sigs. I read that Beretta paid a high price to have the sigs swapped with M9s.

I liked the movie a lot until I heard Luttrell point out all the embellishments/ changes. Still a great movie though

 

[crestoncowboy]

Notice part of the lever is missing near Arnold's trigger finger. They did not come from the factory like that.

According to one of the director cut/special edition deals....One was a real cut down winchester. One didn't have the cut. And One was rubber. On one of the director cuts they talk about Arnold using the wrong gun and breaking a finger trying to sling it to reload it while on the motorcycle.

I have one of the pw87 guns....would be no loss to take a saw to that one.

 

[Riomouse911]

The longer I look at the OPs pic from the Alienist, the more convinced I am that its either a plastic replica or a Spanish copy of the Army Special. The giveaway is what appears to either be a screw head or injection hole on the frame just aft of the crane.

Dont forget the Krag rifles which filled in for Lee-Metfords in "Gunga Din."

Ya, the Spanish were known to copy the bejeezus out of American handgun designs...wouldn't surprise me at all if it is a replica.

Stay safe.

 

[Terry G]

I think it's funny when the SWAT Team is geared up for a raid with helmets, goggles,. flak vests, the whole thing, but the stars of the show put on a dinky fake chest protector and go in first on a raid. Also, the SWAT guy's have M16's, M4's and Shotguns, but the stars? 9"s or maybe a .45.

 

[23tony]

On a slightly related note, I've been noticing that more movies and TV shows are showing much better trigger etiquette than they used to - finger extended beside the trigger instead of on the trigger all the time.

Or maybe it's just that I'm noticing it more, but comparing newer to older, it seems to hold up.