It's a magazine, not a clip!!!!!!!!!!!!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Pretty bad, my most successful post (100+ responses) is about the magazine vs. clip debate.

Sorry for starting this, just had to get it off of my chest.

But, my Glock does take a magazine......:neener:

Steve
 
Dennis,

Very well said.

pax

The English have no respect for their language, and will not teach their children to speak it. It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth, without making some other Englishman despise him. -- George Bernard Shaw
 
that does it! i'm going back to grunts and exaggerated gestures to communicate my needs, starting.....NOW!

ugh....
 
"Very well said. I'm curious how anal the language nazis are when discussing a subject other than firearms."

At the office? Very. It's what I'm paid to do.

In discussions where correct usage can be at the heart of understanding, or confusion? Very.

Among friends who know what I mean (in other words, more informal and colloquial), not as much.


But, in situations where the improper use of a term could create or expand confusion, or give a competitor an advantage? EXTREMELY.
 
Dennis,

"- proper use of punctuation with (and within) quotation marks, the differences between the American and British
(aka English) customs (both of which are used formally in the United States), and some of the exceptions;"

I'm game. I have this type of discussion with my coworkers, on average, twice a month. ;)


"- using nouns as verbs;"

Yep, that can certainly weird the language...


"As for me, I prefer clear, concise, unambiguous non-standard speech to
willful obfuscations intended to intimidate rather than elucidate."

There's the rub, the heart of the problem.

Often "non-standard" speech is, by its very nature ambiguous, so it becomes unclear and fosters confusion.
 
In cases like magazine vs. clip and pistol vs. revolver (or whatever), I think there really is no concensus on what is absolutly correct. Calling a revolver a pistol is not incorrect by any clearly defined defination but calling a glock a revolver is incorrect and we all know why.

I think people just like to feel special, they think they know something that not everyone knows and it makes them feel smart. If someone tell me that they need a new clip for there 9mm, I know exactly what they mean, you have to try to misunderstand to not get it.

Bullets are borderline as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes I do not understand what is meant when someone calls something a bullet. If it is someone who is new to guns then I assume they mean cartridges but if it is someoen who should know better and they call cartridges bullets, then it gets confusing.

I think my point is, is anyone really getting confused by the use of the words magazine and clip? Is it a problem or are people just acting like that snobbish gunstore owner that ran the little old lady out of the store? We should watch how we act, we want more people to be drawn to shooting and gun owning, we don't want to drive people away by acting like a bunch of know it all jerks.
 
The Language Pedant's Parthian Shot…

 

Two excerpts from the writings of the late Richard Mitchell, who passed on 27 December 2002. Those not familiar with his name might however recognize The Underground Grammarian, celebrated thoughout Jeff Cooper's most entertaining Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip:
Two things, then, are necessary for intelligent discourse: an array of names, and a conventional system for telling. The power of a language is related, therefore, to the size and subtlety of its lexicon, its bank of names, and the flexibility and accuracy of its telling system, its grammar.
And…
Bad writing is like any other form of crime; most of it is unimaginative and tiresomely predictable. The professor of education seeking a grant and the neighborhood lout looking for a score simply go and do as their predecessors have done. The one litanizes about carefully unspecified developments in philosophy, psychology, and communications theory, and the other sticks up the candy store.
Just so…

Mr. Mitchell's Less Than Words Can Say is highly recommended reading.
 
Mike,

You say, “I'm game. I have this type of discussion with my coworkers, on average, twice a month.â€

Hmm. I sense a baited hook. Let me circle without biting….

If the workers of a typical organization spend very much time discussing questions concerning grammar or style, then I am forced to suspect a lack of leadership in that organization. Such arguments usually are a waste of our most precious and irreplaceable resource—time—because the questions can be resolved in minutes. Buy a “style†book that most closely approximates the style your leader requires of his subordinates. There are many different (usually self-proclaimed) authorities in the field of English (or American English) grammar and style so find the one that best suits your needs.

Without an agreed-upon final authority, arguing style is seldom conclusive. There are too many opinions (and opinions are like…., most people have at least one, and most of them stink) concerning style to resolve such questions without a unifying document—for example, a style book.

OTOH, if style is merely something preferable rather than mandatory or universal, let style follow substance. I will pay you the compliment of suspecting you agree.

Note in the preceding sentence, the “OTOH†in no way interfered with your understanding of my sentence. It is, as you know, accepted in this forum as an understandable replacement for the phrase, “On the other hand.â€

Therefore, to blame every misunderstanding upon the “transmitter†(the speaker or writer) is blatantly dishonest. The “receiver†(the listener or reader) must share some responsibility in the science and art of communication.

If (God and George Bush forbid it) you were in a foxhole and you (under extreme pressure of mortal combat) yelled for a “clip†rather than a magazine for your M-16 or Beretta, I doubt that even you would appreciate the ammo carrier (burdened with “magazines†for both your firearms) answering back, “I don’t have any clips!â€

Again, the “receiver†must share some responsibility in the process of interpersonal communication.

An honest mistake by the “transmitter†can be understood as unintentional. Competency in vocabulary and style is no longer a requirement for graduation from government schools or most universities. Some people have neither the talent nor the time to educate themselves or, more likely, they recognize no need to do so.

However, for a “receiver†(again, a listener or reader) to willfully misunderstand the transmitter’s attempt to communicate is dishonest. It is the “receiver†in this case who deserves our disdain.

Note my earlier statement, "As for me, I prefer clear, concise, unambiguous non-standard speech to
willful obfuscations intended to intimidate rather than elucidate."

You replied, “There's the rub, the heart of the problem. Often ‘non-standard’ speech is, by its very nature ambiguous, so it becomes unclear and fosters confusion.â€

While I agree with your statement, it does not apply to my statement. I clearly stated, “UNambiguous.†Some other thoughts come to mind.
- Non-standard speech is not necessarily ambiguous.
- So-called “standard†speech is not necessarily clear, concise, accurate, or even truthful.
- Perceived specialized needs (e.g. scientific, social, etc.) may create “non-standard†jargon which is both necessary and clear to those who use the terms.
- Colloquial expressions, though “non-standard,†may facilitate accurate communication among the users.
- The pedant’s efforts to “educate†those whom he considers his “inferiors†is often (to use your word) more an attempt at self-aggrandizement than honest assistance.

For these reasons and others I still believe my preference is valid when I say, “As for me, I prefer clear, concise, unambiguous non-standard speech to willful obfuscations intended to intimidate rather than elucidate.â€

Furthermore, jargon, colloquial expressions, and acceptable language usage must change to cope with changing needs. I doubt that Chaucer used terms capable of expressing the technical differences between DSL and dial-up, that Shakespeare spoke of “foam rubber,†or Robert Burns felt a need to describe modern “Weapons of Mass Destruction.â€

Likewise, my unabridged dictionary has no explanation for “blogger†though we seem to have many, even here, who might epitomize the concept. ;)

So I’ll not take that baited hook. I merely am saddened at the time we spend on needlessly divisive, pseudo-academic topics such as this rather than honest, diligent efforts to restore Constitutional law in the United States.

Also, when the initiator brags that this was done merely to stir the pot because “It was a LOT of fun,†it reduces the initiator to the leve of “troll.†And all of us who responded (including you and me, Mike) took his bait.

www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12673
 
"If the workers of a typical organization spend very much time discussing questions concerning grammar or style, then I am forced to suspect a lack of leadership in that organization."


Don't jump to too many conclusions, you'll hurt yourself.

I the lead technical editor/chief grammar problem solver/question answerer in a group of about 300 to 350 people.

It's a group of software developers who also have to do some of the writing.

You can lead a web developer to a grammar text, but you cannot make him link...

The "discussions" are no more than a few minutes in length, working with someone who may have written a set of release notes last year, and nothing since, and can't remember where the punctuation goes in a sentence that's enclosed in quotes.

I teach regular classes, but attendance is not mandatory, nor will I make it mandatory.

That way either I, or one of the editors under me, is sure to get a pass at the document. That's not just job security, it's a necessity.

Most of the people who work here, those under the age of 30 and with technical degrees, were never required to take a college grammar or composition class. Their ability to convey in writing any but the simplest concepts is sadly lacking.

It's a sad fact that writing concisely seems to be a dying art, and is being replaced with the ability to program concisely.


At no point did I ever attempt to blame all of the problems on the transmitter. While I agree that the receiver must share some of the burden, at the same time, the greater burden is on the person conveying the information. He has something to share; he has to do it in a way that promotes the greatest understanding among parties. It that means taking out (or defining) specific jargon or colloquialisms that the receiver may not understand, that's the conveyer's job. The old axiom applies -- Know your audience, and speak to them, not above them, or around them.

OTOH perhaps isn't such a great example given the computer literacy of the group here. That's a common net abbreviation, as are ROFL, CUL8R, etc.

But, were I to say to you, "I need to readen the living room," would you necessarily know what I mean? Not everyone does. It's Pennsylvania Dutch colloquial meaning "I need to clean, or straighten up, the living room."

Were I in a foxhole, in a combat situation, I suspect that would mean that I, and the others there with me, had gone through a military indoctrination where the accepted terms had been drilled into us by the instructors.

I sincerely doubt that there would be any misunderstanding.

Ultimately, though, you miss the overall point that I, and others, have tried to bring out in this entire thread.

I we, as gun owners, lapse into colloquial and "understood" terms when referring to our firearms, where one object has multiple meanings, how can we as a group hope to define the greater public image of these items based on fact, and not hysteria and hyperbole?

I ask again, which would you rather have one of your gun owning friends say when talking about his post-ban Colt Sporter?

Semi-automatic rifle....

or

Assault rifle....

Which would you rather see printed in the newspapers?

If we can't educate our own to use the correct terminology, how can we ever hope to educate others?
 
Dean Speir wrote:
Blackhawk asserts:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A word means what people who use it intend it to mean, and that's how the meanings end up in the dictionary.

Luddites never could understand that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You mean, of course, "pedants."
No, I meant Luddites meaning "those who are opposed to change."
 
freeride21a, the caption on the right side of your graphic exposes one of my peeves -- dropping the "r" on "your".
Magazine you use for you firearm!
:rolleyes:
 
We're really drilling down here…

 

Blackhawk, still fighting a rearguard action, declaims:
No, I meant Luddites meaning "those who are opposed to change."
The very point of many here is that words have a specific meaning, and you're attempting to redefine "Luddite" more broadly. From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition:
Lud·dite noun

  1. Any of a group of British workers who between 1811 and 1816 rioted and destroyed laborsaving textile machinery in the belief that such machinery would diminish employment.
  2. One who opposes technical or technological change.[/list=1]
  1. Just as all "ammunition charging devices" are not "clips" (or "magazines"), the Luddites resisted not simply change, but "technical or technological change."

     
 
It's entering the vernacular, just as camo is for camouflage.

And just as clip is for magazine.

pax, tiptoeing quietly away

Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind. -- Rudyard Kipling
 
"And just as clip is for magazine."

On the surface that would seem to be a good example of the argument supporting that transposition, but it's really not, Pax.

Limo and camo are shortened versions of the correct word, just as mag is for magazine.

If I'm looking at a limo, though, I don't call it a station wagon, because it's not a station wagon, it's a limo.
 
"And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!"

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptously. "Of course you don't --- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "

"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument,' " Alice objected.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean --- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master --- that's all."




:D



from THROUGH THE LOOKING-GLASS by Lewis Carroll (except for the Smilie)
 
How to distinguish magazines from clips

An excerpt:

"A magazine is a device that hold cartridges. It holds cartridges in place, one on top of another, so that the gun may strip
them off and fire them. Not all guns load via magazines. The ones that do are usually autoloaders. Magazines are flat
boxes, enclosed on five sides and open at the top. One loads cartridges into the top. Once loaded with a magazine,the
gun takes a cartridge from the top of the magazine and fires it. The magazine has a spring in it that pushes the next
cartridge in line to the top of the magazine. After a gun fires, it extracts the next cartridge from the magazine. A clip is
different from a magazine, and in the modern world far rarer. A clip is a bent piece of metal that holds cartridges in a
row. The cartridges are not enclosed in any way like they are in a magazine. Clips are most often used as disposable
loading devices for guns, especially rifles, that have built-in magazines. Some guns, however, do accept a clip and use it
as part of their firing cycle. The obsolete US service rifle, the M1 Garand, uses a unique style of clip called a bloc that
one actually loads into the rifle. The bloc is ejected from the rifle whenthe last cartridge is fired."

http://members.aol.com/vaquero760/ammo/apart1.htm
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top