CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You can certainly load light .44Spl's for small game but you can't load the .357 up for moose. 
It's all my levergun's fault really....
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MCgunner
Member
I have a 7mm Rem Mag, maybe not quite what most would take moose hunting (300WM minimum), but beats the hell out of a .44. And, I ain't seen any moose in Texas. There are some Nilgai. They're kinda mean and most ranches that hunt them won't let you use less than .300 win mag. They'd definitely put a foot down if you said .44 mag.
If there were moose in Texas, I wouldn't be the one hunting 'em with a .44, I can tell ya that. If a .44 can kill it reasonably, a .357 can. End of story. Moose were killed by DB Wesson after inventing and producing the first .357 handguns. He killed everything on the North American continent with it, as the story goes. If a handgun can do it, reckon a rifle can?
Personally, I think 7 mag is enough for moose using a good controlled expansion bullet like the Nosler 160 partition. My Savage shoots those 1 MOA. And, with my Leupold VariX 3, I can put 'em where it counts. But, I don't really use that gun much. I could always rebarrel it to .338 Win Mag. I'll let you do the moose hunting with the .44 mag.
If there were moose in Texas, I wouldn't be the one hunting 'em with a .44, I can tell ya that. If a .44 can kill it reasonably, a .357 can. End of story. Moose were killed by DB Wesson after inventing and producing the first .357 handguns. He killed everything on the North American continent with it, as the story goes. If a handgun can do it, reckon a rifle can?
Personally, I think 7 mag is enough for moose using a good controlled expansion bullet like the Nosler 160 partition. My Savage shoots those 1 MOA. And, with my Leupold VariX 3, I can put 'em where it counts. But, I don't really use that gun much. I could always rebarrel it to .338 Win Mag. I'll let you do the moose hunting with the .44 mag.
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MCgunner
Member
Another thought....how many grizzly bear, moose, etc, you reckon have been killed by the .30-30? It's all the natives in northern Alaska used for many years. It wasn't the arrow, t'was the Indian, maybe? Still, if I gotta face down a griz (none in Texas), and I gotta use a lever gun, I'm STARTING at .45-70, not .44 magnum. Even that .45-70 would feel mighty light against one of those things. But, lots of griz were killed with the lowly .30-30 pushing a 170 grain bullet along at 2100 fps tops.
Still, if I gotta face down a griz (none in Texas), and I gotta use a lever gun, I'm STARTING at .45-70, not .44 magnum. Even that .45-70 would feel mighty light against one of those things. But, lots of griz were killed with the lowly .30-30 pushing a 170 grain bullet along at 2100 fps tops.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Then they would do so out of pure ignorance.
On what planet???
Too may opinions. Not enough advice. OP has already stated he has a 336 in 30-30.
If you want more butt than a 30-30 has then a revolver/rifle caliber won't cut it.
But just for fun or "matched" pair, keep the 45lc and try a Marlin 1894 "cowboy" model.
BTW. Why does Mr Craig C always argue with every one on every thread?
If you want more butt than a 30-30 has then a revolver/rifle caliber won't cut it.
But just for fun or "matched" pair, keep the 45lc and try a Marlin 1894 "cowboy" model.
BTW. Why does Mr Craig C always argue with every one on every thread?
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Not everyone, only those who spread information that is untrue.
This one is easy, the notion that the .44Mag carbine is unsuitable for moose is laughable. Too many energy worshippers.
MCgunner
Member
Hunt moose however you want. Like I say, DB Wesson killed 'em with a .357 revolver. Neither is my first choice in a hunting rifle, but I've taken hogs and deer with mine and my handguns in .357. I just think that a handgun/lever gun combo in .357 IS more versatile. It can double as a deer rifle or a .22 depending on the load. The .43 is a bit much for small game shooting any available .429" bullet from a .44 special. That was my point, not that I'm ever going to go elephant hunting with it.
You've proved your .44 magnum fanboy status. Move on, now. Neither is a BAD choice and, hell, there's the .45 COLT or the .454 Casull if you REALLY wanna hunt bigger stuff with it.
Neither is my first choice in a hunting rifle, but I've taken hogs and deer with mine and my handguns in .357. I just think that a handgun/lever gun combo in .357 IS more versatile. It can double as a deer rifle or a .22 depending on the load. The .43 is a bit much for small game shooting any available .429" bullet from a .44 special. That was my point, not that I'm ever going to go elephant hunting with it. You've proved your .44 magnum fanboy status. Move on, now. Neither is a BAD choice and, hell, there's the .45 COLT or the .454 Casull if you REALLY wanna hunt bigger stuff with it.
MCgunner
Member
Or hell, how about a .45-70 guide gun and this?
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=BFR45-707
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=BFR45-707
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
No, I'm just more educated on the subject that those who spread misinformation. The discussion would've been the same for any big bore revolver cartridge, .41Mag and above. Apparently there are still a lot of folks for whom it is a completely foreign concept that you can actually hunt large game with a handgun. Like I said, energy worshippers.
MCgunner
Member
Educated, ah? So now you're calling me a STUPID liar?
Ah, edit out the incivility, probably some 12 year old passed his bedtime.....
So now you're calling me a STUPID liar? Ah, edit out the incivility, probably some 12 year old passed his bedtime.....
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
No, I'm not calling you anything and there is no reason to get hostile. All I'm saying is that if you think the .44Mag is incapable of handling game like moose, your knowledge on the subject is lacking. Or that you are hung up on energy figures.
Yes, because it would be far easier to dismiss everything I've said by some ludicrous accusation than to actually consider the possibility that you could be wrong. The fact that you said that anything that could be killed with a .44Mag could be killed with a .357 makes YOU sound like the 12yr old.
Bottom line, like the old adage, you can handload the .44Mag for everything from "mice to moose". The .357, while an excellent levergun cartridge, not so much. Mice to deer would be more accurate. That and 20yrs experience with the cartridge, tells me that it is more versatile.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
Guys check out what Major Doug Wesson (one of the Smith & Wesson Wessons)did with a 357 revolver a few years back....
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/357magnum.htm
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Read that article and many more on Leverguns.com. Keith's books, including the above quoted Sixgun Cartridges & Loads, are on my desk at present. What Major Wesson did with a .357 back in the early days is amazing but it still doesn't make the cartridge the .44Mag's equal. That is just plain silly as it can be and no recognized authority will ever agree that it is so. Nor will one recommend it for anything larger than deer-sized game. No amount of wishful thinking will make it so.
Max loads:
.357 - 173gr at 1400fps - TKO 12.4 - ME 753ft-lbs (for those of you who care)
.44 - 355gr at 1250fps - TKO 27.3 - ME 1232ft-lbs (because I don't)
Which is about like comparing the .243 to a .375H&H.
It's also worth mentioning that Keith said he liked the .357 better than any other "factory load". Factory loads for the .44Spl and .45Colt, at the time, were still very conservative and the bullets were not very good. He still liked his famous .44Spl handload better than anything else until the .44Mag came along in 1956.
Max loads:
.357 - 173gr at 1400fps - TKO 12.4 - ME 753ft-lbs (for those of you who care)
.44 - 355gr at 1250fps - TKO 27.3 - ME 1232ft-lbs (because I don't
)Which is about like comparing the .243 to a .375H&H.
It's also worth mentioning that Keith said he liked the .357 better than any other "factory load". Factory loads for the .44Spl and .45Colt, at the time, were still very conservative and the bullets were not very good. He still liked his famous .44Spl handload better than anything else until the .44Mag came along in 1956.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
Where are you getting 355g 44 mags?
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
OBTW back to the original post, if you think a 45 version of a 1894 is cramping our style, any of the others will also.
keep the 45 and get a marlin in 45 colt and have a nice leather butt pad put on and make the stock longer. A 45 Colt will beat a 43 mag any day if you handload.
keep the 45 and get a marlin in 45 colt and have a nice leather butt pad put on and make the stock longer. A 45 Colt will beat a 43 mag any day if you handload.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
At maximum levels, 40,000CUP for the .44Mag and 32,000CUP for the .45Colt, the .44Mag will retain at least a 100fps advantage with comparable bullet weights. Moreover, in the heaviest practical cast bullets for each, (360gr .45 vs 355gr .44) the .44Mag has a definite advantage in sectional density. The 360gr .45 is actually closer to the 330gr .44, which can be driven 200fps faster at standard pressures (1350fps vs 1150fps). Each has its own minute advantage over the other, giving the nod to neither. They are very, very close in performance.
Beartooth. Data from Hodgdon.
MCgunner
Member
For the record, I never said the .357 was the .44's equal. What I said was, from a rifle, it'll kill a deer as dead as a .44. Both have a rather limited range, of course. I also claim that the .357 in a lever gun is more versatile as it makes a better light load for small game. That's all I claim. I don't claim it's as good an elephant or moose gun. Lord knows, the popularity of the .44 mag for dangerous game is unequaled.
Anyway, a .45 Colt can exceed .44 magnum and makes a bigger hole since you think that's important. I don't push my .45 Colt too hot in my Ruger Blackhawk, but in a Freedom arms revolver, it can kick sand on the .44. The 92 action is also fully capable of handling those "Ruger only" loads.
I'm sorry I don't own a .44. My loss I'm sure. Don't feel I need one, though. I guess I'll just go on wounding and torturing game with less guns like .308s and such.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
No, you said:
"If a .44 can kill it reasonably, a .357 can. End of story."
I wouldn't exactly go comparing a $500 six-shot .44Mag to a $2000 five-shot .45Colt capable of digesting 55,000psi loads either. If we're gonna compare apples to apples, then the .44Mag Freedom Arms can be loaded well above SAAMI standard pressures. Think 255's@1784fps and 300's@1600fps. Very comparable to five-shot .45Colt loads, the .44 just needed a 2½" longer barrel length to do it. Unfortunately, in this chambering, it is limited by case capacity. The .45Colt really only shades the .44Mag by any appreciable amount at these pressure levels and really only when comparing FA's or $2500-$3000 custom five-shots to $500 factory Ruger .44Mag's. Or 55,000psi to 36,000psi.
http://www.singleactions.com/files/FiveShot45Colts.pdf
"If a .44 can kill it reasonably, a .357 can. End of story."
I wouldn't exactly go comparing a $500 six-shot .44Mag to a $2000 five-shot .45Colt capable of digesting 55,000psi loads either. If we're gonna compare apples to apples, then the .44Mag Freedom Arms can be loaded well above SAAMI standard pressures. Think 255's@1784fps and 300's@1600fps. Very comparable to five-shot .45Colt loads, the .44 just needed a 2½" longer barrel length to do it. Unfortunately, in this chambering, it is limited by case capacity. The .45Colt really only shades the .44Mag by any appreciable amount at these pressure levels and really only when comparing FA's or $2500-$3000 custom five-shots to $500 factory Ruger .44Mag's. Or 55,000psi to 36,000psi.
http://www.singleactions.com/files/FiveShot45Colts.pdf
As stated before, the 92 action is capable of much more.
MCgunner
Member
Yep, hogs and deer, that's what I mean. This is why I like the .357 over the .44. I do not consider either caliber adequate for bigger than deer/hog/black bear sized game, anyway. YMMV If you hunt a lot of elephants and feel the .44 is enough for that, go for it. Maybe I'll read about you in the obits.
And, now you're changing the requirements to a 500 dollar max cost? A freedom Arms revolver can be had for under 1500, BTW, last time I checked.
olafhardtB
Member
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TKO
Iwish to point out the absurdity of the TKO and all other momentum based measurements of firearm effectiveness. The momentum, mass x velocity, of the gun AIWAYS exceeds that of the bullet. Therefore the "knock out" of the gun should injure the shooter more than the bullet injures the shot. Some like to include area of the bullet in the formula which winds up proving a basket ball deadlier than a 357.My personal formula is if the critter dies quickly the gun was effective that time.
Iwish to point out the absurdity of the TKO and all other momentum based measurements of firearm effectiveness. The momentum, mass x velocity, of the gun AIWAYS exceeds that of the bullet. Therefore the "knock out" of the gun should injure the shooter more than the bullet injures the shot. Some like to include area of the bullet in the formula which winds up proving a basket ball deadlier than a 357.My personal formula is if the critter dies quickly the gun was effective that time.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
TKO is a useful tool for comparing big bore cartridges firing non-expanding bullets to each other. As was originally intended. It is only viable within certain parameters. Not for high velocity cartridges firing expanding bullets and not for basketballs. No, it ain't perfect but it's a hell of a lot more useful than energy, which is far too dependent upon velocity.
MCgunner
Member
I'll whack 'em and stack 'em with my .257 Roberts out to a full 400 yards on deer/hogs. It shoots a 100 grain bullet at 3150 fps MV. It is a superior hunting weapon to any .44 mag carbine. Don't hurt that it is a 1/2MOA rifle, either. I'm 59 years old, killed my first deer with it at age 11. It killed dozens, from 25 yards to 400 yards, for my grandpa and it has killed dozens since.
Yes, energy is important in rifles, far more so than handguns. And, the .357 magnum is NOT the same cartridge fired from a 20" barrel as it is from a 2" snub. Neither is the .44 mag. The slowish powders used in the magnum revolver calibers beg for more barrel length to show their stuff. The .44 mag from a rifle is in the 1800 ft lb category. That's as much as a factory load .30-30, after all. It ain't just the big bullet working for you there. Range, however, is quite limited by the atrocious ballistic coefficients of pistol bullets. They're pretty well spent by 100 or a tad more yards.
I'm not dissing the .44, it's a good caliber for what it is. But, it ain't the end all in hunting rifles. There are FAR better choices out there in hunting calibers. I own a 7mm Rem Mag, a .308 Winchester, the .257 Roberts, a couple of SKSs in 7.62x39 and some mil surp stuff in 8x57 and have owned other calibers in the past. They all work on deer/hog quite well, better than .357 magnum because of the added range and energy, not due to more bullet weight or diameter. I've only killed a few deer with the .357. Currently, I'm working on trying to bag one with a real thumper, 385 grain .50 cal in front of 90 grains of 777. I'm gonna get it done THIS year....
Sorry, I know this thread is TOTALLY hijacked at this point. I still recommend the .357 to the OP, though, not for superior big game efficiency, but for versatility and fun and less ammo cost and some other reasons.
Yes, energy is important in rifles, far more so than handguns. And, the .357 magnum is NOT the same cartridge fired from a 20" barrel as it is from a 2" snub. Neither is the .44 mag. The slowish powders used in the magnum revolver calibers beg for more barrel length to show their stuff. The .44 mag from a rifle is in the 1800 ft lb category. That's as much as a factory load .30-30, after all. It ain't just the big bullet working for you there. Range, however, is quite limited by the atrocious ballistic coefficients of pistol bullets. They're pretty well spent by 100 or a tad more yards.
I'm not dissing the .44, it's a good caliber for what it is. But, it ain't the end all in hunting rifles. There are FAR better choices out there in hunting calibers. I own a 7mm Rem Mag, a .308 Winchester, the .257 Roberts, a couple of SKSs in 7.62x39 and some mil surp stuff in 8x57 and have owned other calibers in the past. They all work on deer/hog quite well, better than .357 magnum because of the added range and energy, not due to more bullet weight or diameter. I've only killed a few deer with the .357. Currently, I'm working on trying to bag one with a real thumper, 385 grain .50 cal in front of 90 grains of 777.
I'm gonna get it done THIS year....Sorry, I know this thread is TOTALLY hijacked at this point. I still recommend the .357 to the OP, though, not for superior big game efficiency, but for versatility and fun and less ammo cost and some other reasons.
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robctwo
Member
I'm taking my Rossi 1892 .45 Colt out tomorrow for Western Oregon blacktail. I have a modest load of 10.5 Universal and a 255 gr lswc running around 1,200 fps. I have some 340 gr loaded to 1,300 fps with 2400 which will work for most of my other needs.
I like the little carbine for a brush gun, and we still have most all the leaves on the trees and brush.
I traded a .44 mag for a Ruger BH convertible in .45 Colt/ACP a couple years back and have never regretted going .45 over .44.
I like the little carbine for a brush gun, and we still have most all the leaves on the trees and brush.
I traded a .44 mag for a Ruger BH convertible in .45 Colt/ACP a couple years back and have never regretted going .45 over .44.
MCgunner
Member
One thing I like about a .45 Colt combo over a .44 mag is the size of the handguns. MOST .44 mag single actions are beefier. The super blackhawk is a big, heavy gun compared to a standard Blackhawk. Of course, too, the .45 Colt was actually USED in rifles and handguns back in the day, though .44-40 and .38-40 were more popular in that regard. .44-40 would be a good choice for a combo, but one would need to handload it to keep ammo costs down, not to mention availability, though it can be ordered off the net. I handload everything I own, anyway.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The .45Colt was never chambered in rifles until modern times, due to its tiny rim. It needed solid head brass with an extractor rim to function properly in a repeating rifle. The .45Colt is a historic sixgun cartridge, its use in rifles is not.
The Super Blackhawk and Blackhawk .45Colt are the exact same size and built on the same frame. The only difference is that the Super is all steel, whereas the blued .45 Blackhawk has an aluminum grip frame and ejector housing. So it is lighter, by six or seven ounces.
The new limited run, distributor special, mid-frame flat-top .45 convertibles not withstanding.
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