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It's time for new thinking on guns in schools

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Andrew Rothman, Sep 4, 2004.

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  1. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

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    Well, we've all seen the pictures of the dead Russian schoolchildren. My heart goes from numbness to sadness to anger to resolve, then starts over again.

    To those who would say, "It could never happen here," I would point to a rather large crater in Manhattan. We thought that would never happen here, either.

    A couple of dozen terrorists held a thousand people -- students, parents, and staff -- hostage.

    The Russian people are, for the most part, disarmed by their government. Those parents had no tools with which to resist the animals who killed so many of their children before their eyes.

    In Israel, after PLO terrorists targeted schoolchildren in the 1970s, the government started letting reservists keep their guns at home and carry them on the streets.

    Teachers armed themselves, volunteer parents patrolled the schools, and even volunteer civilian sniper teams were formed.

    And the terrorists pretty much gave up on schools as targets.

    (Dave Kopel writes about this at http://nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200 409022215.asp, where he quotes a fascinating interview of a German-Israeli ex-soldier/political scientist/security expert: http://www.jpfo.org/school.htm )

    My daughter is two years old. She'll be in Kindergarten in three years.

    Here's what her future elementary school's emergency procedures manual tells her teacher to do:

    Yes, that's real. See for yourself on page three: http://www.minnetonka.k12.mn.us/schools/ EmergencyProcedures/ExcelsiorElementaryS chool.pdf

    "Comply with the gunman" was the mantra of airline security in the pre-September-11th world.

    The rules, in case anyone hasn't noticed, have changed.



    Now, I'm just guessing here, but I'll bet that Israeli schools have a slightly different manual. I imagine I might look like this:

    To which school would you rather trust your child?

    ---
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2004
  2. Lady45

    Lady45 Member

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    Guns in Schools

    Welllll hmmmm

    I have to agree with Matt on this one about terrorists. Our high schools have an on-site policeman at each school....mostly to make sure the students don't start something....not from outside interference....but I have to tell you.....I have an opinion coming from a different point of view. I drive a school bus and have for over 15 years. I have seen the behavior of your "young-uns" change dramatically in that time. Take it for truth....the majority of your children act very differently under peer pressure or whatever you want to call it...when they ride a school bus. We have taken to cameras in the buses that have bad discipline problems...to prove to Mom and Dad just what little Bobby did! But...we have also had adults try to board, highjack.....non-custodial parents trying to take a child at a bus stop.....if you think that the little lady/man behind the door just drives the bus....you are sadly mistaken as to the job qualifications and functions. You try to drive a 45 foot long vehicle with 30-70 screaming kids and maybe you would have some patience and respect for that driver....and cut him/her some slack if they get caught up in traffic ....or have to deal with little Freddie throwing little Jimmy's book out the window.....and are 5 minutes late because of that problem. BUT NO.....you have to get on the phone and call transportation and report a late bus. BUT.....when you take the time to circle the block 4 times because your kindergarten child has no parent to meet them at the bus-stop.....because Mom got caught in traffic...what you get is usually nothing.....sigh. SO....if you trust your child to this person......make them behave....because if someone should happen to hijack that bus....or bring a weapon.....that bus driver is the ONLY person on that bus to protect your child!!!!! and all the rest of them as well!!! SOoooooo........remember to meet your child's driver.....call them if you want......transportation may not give out there phone number....but they will give them a message to call you! Let them know that you are concerned and interested in the welfare of your child.....and work with them....for your childs protection. If I did not love my job....I would not continue to do it.....cause I am not getting rich from it....that is for sure. And come Christmas or the end of the school year.....don't forget to show your bus driver in some small way that you appreciate him/her. I am not allowed to carry on the bus....but there are times that I wish I could...for protection.......for the children.....and for myself. There are crazy people everywhere.

    Sorry if I got a little off subject here....but the school bus is an extention of the school that many people seem to forget about. It is a tough job....
     
  3. GD

    GD Member

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    One of our teachers in our high school is an ex-cop (17 years of service). I ask our principal to let him be armed for the very reasons above. Her response? She thought I was crazy. I told her that I was requesting this only to lay the groundwork for a possible lawsuit in the event there was a school invasion by a gunman!
    The current policy is to lock your doors and turn off the lights and hope he goes away.
    Schools like ours often advertise the fact that they are unarmed with little signs in front of the school.
    I guess we are waiting to change the policy after a couple hundred kids are dead.
     
  4. Diggler

    Diggler Member

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    NO NO NO! You guys are missing the point!

    The reason we haven't had anything like that happen in America and Russia did, is because we have those "This is a Gun-Free Zone" signs on our schools. I bet Russian schools don't have those, and that's why those terrorists went in there. If we sent them some signs, they wouldn't have to worry about it again!
     
  5. stevelyn

    stevelyn Member

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    That concept didn't work at Columbine. Those officers:rolleyes: dove for the nearest exit.
     
  6. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    Look at Russia for a glimpse of the future here in the US. Our schools will be attacked. It will be bloody. It will be a media circus. It will be designed for maximum psychological impact.

    Just after 911 Al Qaeda in a manifesto specifically claimed the right to kill 4 million Americans including up to 2 milliion American children. American schools are plenty in number scattered all over. Since government like consolidation they present large target even in rural area. The police and various paramilitary organizations are not of sufficient numbers to handle multiple hits in a given locale.

    Pulling off a hit on a school requires a trained team. Recently and ignored by our media there has been a increase in groups of OTM (other than Mexicans) crossing the southern border. Because of the stupidity of our immigration officials the response is to take their names and let them go. I fear combat teams are infiltrating the US for a series of hits specifically on US schools.
     
  7. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Which school? A non-government school.

    Why do people at THR believe that the government has the slightest interest in protecting anyone but themselves?

    As an aside, telling children to lay down is what got all those kids shot in Stockton, California. The teacher told them to lie down and allowed Purdy stationary targets. "There are guns here!"

    Wait, before Spain I would have rolled my eyes. But now . . .:uhoh:
     
  8. Atticus

    Atticus Member

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    "Be compliant"
    That explains why 30 armed people can control 1500 people....and then kill 300 of them. What would be the death toll in Russian if they had charged the terrorist immediantly? Many fewer I'd guess.
     
  9. Selvagee

    Selvagee Member

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    Alas this is the same argument made, post- Flight 93, for allowing weapons on aircraft. We all know how far that went. :banghead:

    In this case the were hundreds of adults in the building. Even assuming just a handful of armed parents/staff, the outcome would have been much different as the terrorist dirtbags would not have had the uninterrupted luxury of wiring the building with explosives. It sounds like most of the killed/wounded were caught in explosions rather than shot.

    Thinking of my first-grader having to face something like this ... it's beyond words.

    Unfortunately the WWII-era Japanese concern of "a rifleman behind every tree" defending America just doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
     
  10. Norton

    Norton Member

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    We have two armed uniformed officers in our building, but I doubt how effective they could be in the event of an attack by multiple bad guys.

    We also have a handful of security guys who are retired military or police officers. At least one of those guys has a MD CCW (and we know how hard those are to come by) yet he is prohibited from carrying on school grounds.

    As I've said here before, I'm fairly concerned about this sort of thing.....my room is right next to the exit to the outside and those doors are NEVER secured. Furthermore, I have windows.

    I would be the first to sign up if they said teachers could be armed. I would submit to whatever level of training they said that I had to have.
     
  11. KadicDeshi

    KadicDeshi Member

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    My parents and an aunt and uncle are all public school teachers. I have spoken to my father about this very thing before. It seems that, in Arkansas at least, a teacher in possesion of a firearm cannot come within 1000 ft IIRC of a school without risking at the very least their position and teaching license.

    I was then told about an incident in which a coach was 'caught' with a starter pistol in his vehicle in the school parking lot. I can't remember exactly what happened except that he was in hot water for quite a while.

    I just don't understand. The government expects teachers to protect their students while at the same time denying the means to do so. *sigh*

    That said, I was amazed one time when my father called in the local PD, asking them to shoot down a large limb dangling over the playground after a storm on weekend. He hadn't been able to contact the superintendant or any of the school board to get a tree trimming service out there and many children play in the schoolyard over the weekend.

    The police arrived and were unable to bring the limb down with their glock 22's. My father asked them to allow him to bring his 30-30 onto the school grounds and took the limb down in 1 shot. ( He's had a disdain of .40 S&W ever since despite my attempts to explain that a rifle round simply cannot be compared to a pistol round like that )

    'Course our local PD has about 5-6 officers total and is pretty laid back. Actually, my dad taught a couple of the younger ones. And our town is only about 2000 pop. I can't see him getting away with that in a more populated town.

    Sorry to ramble on, this has always been a bit of a sore spot with me.

    Barrett
     
  12. Walosi

    Walosi Member

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    Even after this Russian school incident, few of our school administrators will seriously consider armed teachers or any civilians in the schools. Their mindset is such that "If the Government doesn't provide it, it can't be protection". They would look kindly on uniformed National Guardsmen on the grounds (but not with loaded magazines, for heavens sakes) because they are "official" and they look nice. Unfortunately, it will probably take a vicious, bloody incident on our soil, like the recent one, to even get their attention. Even then, they will run in circles and dither about it being someone elses fault, because they ALWAYS occupy the high moral ground. If, or when, we have an incident, the school administrators should be gathered and charged with criminal neglect.
     
  13. YammyMonkey

    YammyMonkey Member

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    Home-school anyone?
     
  14. Wayne D

    Wayne D Member

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    I thought this was interesting

    here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/
     
  15. White Horseradish

    White Horseradish Member

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    I thought that was interesting as well, especially considering that guns are rather tightly controlled in Russia.
     
  16. Majic

    Majic Member

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    Terrorist attacks have been a big problem in the Middle East for decades. Russia has been in turmoil ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The big point missed here is that terrorist attacks in the USA are really very infrequent. The school shootings are being done by the students not some terrorist organization. Now what teacher or principal has the conviction to shoot a student that they know? What about the possible collateral damage to innocent students who could be hit in the gunfire?
    Every place has it's own unique set of problems, but you can't use someone else's solution to their problem to solve your problem that is totally different. You are not living in the Middle East or Russia, so stop trying to think like they do as they try to repel invaders coming into their schools. Our school problems are internal with a totally different set of requirments.
     
  17. Norton

    Norton Member

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    >>Now what teacher or principal has the conviction to shoot a student that they know? What about the possible collateral damage to innocent students who could be hit in the gunfire?<<


    I've given a lot of thought to this and I feel as if a student, no matter how well I knew them, were attacking other students with an obvious intent to kill I would be able to do whatever was necessary to eliminate that threat.

    In an instance where a gunman was already in the process of shooting innocent children, it seems to me as if collateral damage is the lesser of two evils. Choice A is to allow a gunman to slaughter helpless kids unchallenged, Choice B is to do what is necessary to stop said gunman. At least with choice B, less kids are dead in the end.
     
  18. Walosi

    Walosi Member

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    Majic, are you just a bit locked in on the type of administrative thinking I referred to? We aren't using "their" solutions to solve "our" problems, and at the instant of decision, the problem is the same - attacker(s) taking and/or murdering in our schools. At that instant it is immaterial whether the reason is political, monetary or "I'm gonna kill all of you because mommy made me wear funny clothes". The discussion is about the practicality of armed resistance to an attack on students massed in our/their normal school setting. The scenario is moot - it will be what it will be. The result is never satisfactory, but evaluated on the outcome of resistance over total compliance to the "terms" of an individual or group bent on slaughter.

    The thought that kids have to attend classes in a venue resembling an armed camp is unsettling, to be sure. Sending them to the care of adults who will simply capitulate to an attacker is not acceptable. It is coming our way - that is almost without doubt. Calling it "their problem" simply makes us more vulnerable. If I had used past experience and that type of reasoning in practicing concealed carry, I would be dead, now. Twice.
     
  19. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Wrong. Splatter the gunman's brains all over the nearest wall. Smirk at the remaining Islamic terrorist savages.
     
  20. Roadkill

    Roadkill Member

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    I'm a JROTC Instructor in a 2,000 kid high school. Been there for seven years. What you are missing is that out of 150 teachers about twenty are men. The females overall would rather die than touch a firearm. They are Democrats and liberals. Of twenty or so men at least three are gay. I mean flamers. Probably a couple of more are I don't know about. NOT gun candidates. My point is that out of 150 teachers maybe you could get seven or so who might be capable of using a gun for real. You should completely disregard the school employees as a factor in stoping any type of terrorist event. Hell, they aren't even reliable in a tornado drill.

    rk
     
  21. Wayne D

    Wayne D Member

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    For now.
     
  22. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    The cop on duty at Columbine tarded shots with Eric Harris until he was out of ammo. The thing was when it went down, he was outside the school.

    I'd agree re-thinking school security. That situation in could well have been a test-run.
     
  23. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Quote:
    ---------------------------
    The cop on duty at Columbine tarded shots with Eric Harris until he was out of ammo.
    ---------------------------

    As I recall, he testified he was down to seven rounds.

    The students who were abandoned, of course, had plenty of ammo. :-(
     
  24. Wayne D

    Wayne D Member

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    I remember an analysis of the Lubby’s (sp?) shooting in Texas that said most of the people that ran got away. The ones that hid under their tables were executed. I taught my kids that if they were in that kind of situation to get the hell out. A moving target is harder to hit than a stationary one. Of course if they are in a classroom and the teacher blocks the door and makes them stay in the room then they may not have the chance but if they get the chance then go.

    I agree that a re-thinking of school responses are in order.
     
  25. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Let's face it, school officials are hardly tactical geniuses!

    And they have a predelection toward NOT acting to defend themselves.
     
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