Iver Johnson top break revolver bottleneck 38

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So we did some running around This morning and went to a country gun shop and the owner showed me a blued iver Johnson top break revolver in the showcase. I asked was it 38 special and he said no it’s 38 s&w bottleneck round and he had some rounds in a bag he showed me. He commented how tight the gun was, it was literally like new. The price tag was 250.00. Is that round the black powder one or could this been the last model iver Johnson? This store isn’t really close for me to go back and check out out further but if anyone is an iver nut I can pass along the contact info. This gun is in super condition for what it is- this photo is just off internet to show what it looked like. Not sure the exact model but he said for sure 38 caliber not 32
 

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The only top-break 38 caliber revolvers Iver Johnson ever made were for ammunition called "38 Smith & Wesson". It is not bottlenecked in any way I can think of, although the bullet has a small shoulder on it. It was introduced by S&W in the 1870's and was very popular until about 1930, with millions of revolvers made for it by a variety of companies, including Colt. It remained fairly popular until about 1945, and then began to fade, but slowly. So many guns still existed for it, and were still used, that it was easy to get up thru the 1980's. But after pretty much everything made for it got to be over 50 years old, demand for it began to drop, and I guess now it is hard to find on the shelf anywhere. It is still available from sellers on the Internet, I am sure, although I can't tell you any names.

Because this cartridge was introduced in the 1870's, it originally used "black powder", the original mixture of charcoal, sulphur, and saltpeter. Because it was popular and long-lived, the ammo makers switched it over to smokeless powder at some point. Smokeless powder develops higher peak firing chamber pressure than black powder, so gun makers had to redesign guns slightly to use it, if only by improving the steel used in the cylinder if needed.

Unfortunately, Iver Johnson was slow to do this. Their top-break revolvers are divided into three groups: First Model, Second Model, and Third Model. None of the First or Second Models were made for smokeless ammo. Some, but not all, of the Third Model were.

Judging from the orientation of the owl-head on the grips, I would say the Iver Johnson in your picture is a Third Model. The real proof is to remove the grips. If the spring that powers the hammer is a coil spring, it is a Third. If it is a flat spring, it is a Second. The First Model used a different top latch, so we can rule that out. I think to be more specific, we either need the serial number (which I think is also under the grips) or a real Iver Johnson expert, which I am not.

Given what good shape the side we can see is in, $250 does not strike me as a bad price if the other side is much the same. There is more interest in these guns than there used to be, this one is quite nice, blued IJ's like this are less common than nickel, and Third Models are less common than Seconds. Of course, guns that are mainly collectibles can be harder to resell for full value than shooters.

BTW, Colt did not like putting Smith & Wesson's name on their pistols, so they made a trivial change to the cartridge (their bullet had a small flat place on the nose, instead having a rounded tip) and got the ammo companies to make that as "38 Colt New Police". It is completely interchangeable with regular 38 S&W. The ammo companies dropped it around 1965, give or take most of a decade. If you find some of that, it is fairly old, but if it is post-WWII (say, if the box has a zip-code on it) then it is probably shootable. There is a LOT of old 38 S&W ammo around, and the older it is, the more dubious I would be about using it.
 
Those might have been my words not his. My point with all this was to help maybe someone here that would want a DAMN nice old gun for 250.00. Pm me and I’ll tell you the name of the shop and you can email them or whatever. Blued iver J 38 s&w damn nice
 
The only bottleneck on the .38 S&W is with the ammo supply situation -- it is a straight-walled case.

It is interchangeable with the British .380 Rimmed military cartridge used in Enfield No.2, Webley Mk IV and S&W Victory (and probably some others.)

The much more powerful .38-40 Winchester does have a slight bottleneck, but despite the name it is actually a .40/10mm caliber cartridge. I don't think Iver Johnson ever made anything that took .38-40.

38-40.jpg
 
Going forward, me personally would have trouble putting any stock/credibility into a gun shop that stated 38 SW is a bottleneck cartridge.

I know what you mean, but on the other hand, I think that's a little bit like expecting the mechanics at a regular auto shop to understand carburetors. Yes, they once ruled the land and were everywhere, and there are still a lot of them left, but they're just not something you get much call for anymore. Heck, I had to look up how to spell the word! :)
 

The "Hammer the Hammer" phrase in the ad refers to the transfer bar safety, something Ruger is well-known for today but Iver Johnson originally patented. I understand Oscar Mossberg invented the system for Iver Johnson before starting his own company.
 
The only bottleneck on the .38 S&W is with the ammo supply situation -- it is a straight-walled case.

It is interchangeable with the British .380 Rimmed military cartridge used in Enfield No.2, Webley Mk IV and S&W Victory (and probably some others.)

The much more powerful .38-40 Winchester does have a slight bottleneck, but despite the name it is actually a .40/10mm caliber cartridge. I don't think Iver Johnson ever made anything that took .38-40.

View attachment 1145076

I have both a Webley Mk IV and an Iver Johnson Safety Automatic (2nd Model). You can shoot 38S&W in a Webley Enfield No.2 etc but I would not shoot the 38/200R (.380R) in a Iver Johnson. The military 38/200R ammo uses or 200 gr bullets (and later the MkII ammo used a 178gr jacketed bullet) and operates at slightly higher pressures than regular 38 S&W that is typically loaded with a 125-146gr bullets. It would probably work in one of the small Iver Johnson revolvers but it would be hard on that old revolver.
 
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I have both a Webley Mk IV and an Iver Johnson Safety Automatic (2nd Model). You can shoot 38S&W in a Webley Enfield No.2 etc but I would not shoot the 38/200R (.380R) in a Iver Johnson. The military 38/200R ammo uses or 200 gr bullets (and later the MkII ammo used a 178gr jacketed bullet) and operates at slightly higher pressures than regular 38 S&W that is typically loaded with a 125-146gr bullets. It would probably work in one of the small Iver Johnson revolvers but it would be hard on that old revolver.

I can tell you I certainly managed to stretch the latch or bend the latch screw noticeably on my old model(1896) Iver Johnson .38 after shooting 6-10 rounds of FN .3802Z which is a 178gr FMJ. I decided not to try it in my slightly stronger smokless capable IJ revolvers.
 
The "Hammer the Hammer" phrase in the ad refers to the transfer bar safety, something Ruger is well-known for today but Iver Johnson originally patented. I understand Oscar Mossberg invented the system for Iver Johnson before starting his own company.

Three cheers for Mossberg!

It is hard to believe the dangers of some of the mechanisms back then. The people of the time seem to have had a Puritanical view of risk: that is, God protects the righteous, and the damned deserve what they get!. They also had a "suck it up" attitude. Houses, business, all could have had air conditioning after 1900 when Carrier figured out how to make AC work. But, the attitude was, more or less, God made it hot, deal with it.

These were crazy people in my opinion.
 
Three cheers for Mossberg!

It is hard to believe the dangers of some of the mechanisms back then. The people of the time seem to have had a Puritanical view of risk: that is, God protects the righteous, and the damned deserve what they get!. They also had a "suck it up" attitude. Houses, business, all could have had air conditioning after 1900 when Carrier figured out how to make AC work. But, the attitude was, more or less, God made it hot, deal with it.

These were crazy people in my opinion.

Ever read about the "illuminating gas" they used back then? It is the reason natural gas is called "natural", The old stuff was made from coal, and has just a little cyanide in it. A few good lungfuls and you shed this mortal coil. And that was after they "purified" it. They had to do that, because it in its original state, it had also enough sulfuric acid in it to rot the pipes. Yes, the risks they ran were amazing, but there was no cure for nearly any disease, and any serious infection could be fatal. And no Pure Food and Drug Act. I guess the gas did not seem like much additional risk.

And that applied to pistols as well. Did you know that the S&W series of top-break DA revolvers - the ones that the Iver Johnsons are loose copies of - did NOT have rebounding hammers? We had a thread about that not long ago, and Driftwood Johnson set me straight about that. Just amazing.
 
My paternal grandfather, for whom I am named, was one of the first rural mail carriers in Tennessee. He had to be deputized by the county sheriff to be armed, as mail carriers of that day did go armed. His revolver of choice was a Harrington & richardson .38 S&W top break. Carried in his hip pocket.

Bob Wright

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Ever read about the "illuminating gas" they used back then? It is the reason natural gas is called "natural", The old stuff was made from coal, and has just a little cyanide in it. A few good lungfuls and you shed this mortal coil. And that was after they "purified" it. They had to do that, because it in its original state, it had also enough sulfuric acid in it to rot the pipes. Yes, the risks they ran were amazing, but there was no cure for nearly any disease, and any serious infection could be fatal. And no Pure Food and Drug Act. I guess the gas did not seem like much additional risk.

And that applied to pistols as well. Did you know that the S&W series of top-break DA revolvers - the ones that the Iver Johnsons are loose copies of - did NOT have rebounding hammers? We had a thread about that not long ago, and Driftwood Johnson set me straight about that. Just amazing.

I did not know about the S&W top breaks, I assume without a rebounding hammer, the firing pin rested directly on the primer. Such as the Colt SAA. Alan Garbers wrote "Five beans in the Wheel" Feb 2023 Guns Magazine about recorded Old West accounts of accidental discharges with Colt SAA's.

The half cock had been around for centuries, and failed enough to that the phrase "going off on half cock" is still within the english language. At least until the Wokeish erase it for being too racist or too sexist. A half cock safety is inherently unsafe because the user cannot see if the surfaces of the half cock are worn, cannot see if the half cock is positively engaged. There are several modes where the half cock is not positively engaged. John Browning's 45 ACP pistols used half cocks, by 1900 the Army did not trust half cocks, nor as it turned out, the 1911 thumb safety (it does not block the hammer). The SOP at time of issue for the 1911 was round in the chamber and hammer down. Enough accidental discharges occurred when the hammer slipped, that the carry mode went to round in chamber, safety on, pistol in flap holster, but I it seems to have reverted back to round in chamber hammer down during WW2. After WW2, enough accidental discharges occurred (in Jeeps of all things) that by the time you get to Vietnam, the SOP is nothing in the chamber, magazine in pistol. The 1911 does not have a firing pin block, if dropped far enough on the muzzle, the firing pin will have enough energy to ignite the primer. I was told that 1200 Jeeps had holes in their transmission humps to 1970 from 1911's bouncing off the transmission hump. The Officer would take off his pistol belt, put it in between the seats, or on the floor, and then during Mr Toad's wild ride, the thing would get flung against the hump. Boom! one dead jeep.

this is an example of 19th century engineering, the Marlin 1898 Shotgun half cock, and the weapon will fire out of battery!



Working with Marlin Pump Shotguns Rusty Marlin SASS #33284

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/Marlin98s.htm#_Toc5766673
 
OP, per the photo that Iver-Johnson appears to be the third variant due to the locking cylinder slots. But, check the hammer spring. If it is coiled, it shoots smokeless powder. If it is flat only use BP. The price is fair. I inherited a nickeled third variant hammerless 38 S&W version. I have ammo for it but am shy on firing it. LOL
 
The photo I robbed off the Internet. I do not know which model this one is. The revolver is at a very reputable gun store in caddo mills texas if anyone wants to know. Just trying to pass along what I think is a fair deal on a very nice iver Johnson. :)
 
Howdy

I picked up this Iver Johnson Safety Hammerless about 20 years ago for right around $100. It is chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge.

Right around the Turn of the Century (1900) Iver Johnson completely redesigned their line of revolvers for Smokeless Powder. Among other things, they began using stronger steel for the Smokeless revolvers.

There are three ways to tell if one is safe for Smokeless Powder. This is one that is safe for Smokeless Powder. Notice the little owl on the grips is facing backwards. Notice the slots on the cylinder for the bolt have hard edges both on top and on the bottom of the slots. If we remove the grips, we will see the hammer spring is a coil spring.

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This is an earlier Iver Johnson that should only be fired with Black Powder. Notice the little owl is facing forward. Notice there is only one hard edge on the cylinder slots. And if we remove the grips we will see the hammer spring is a leaf spring.

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I have a minty 'lemon squeezer' Smith in .38 S&W. By the look of it, in may never have been fired, and I'm in no particular hurry to shoot it now.
It's great that ammo is available; the round was popular in Europe more recently than here.
Moon
 
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