I have a smith and wesson 638. I can't seem to control the snappiness of it! I am NOT recoil sensitive. I can shoot 100 3 inch magum shells out of my 12 gauge and consistantly hit my targets. I can shoot a 6 inch 629 just fine. The j frame does not hurt my hand at all. The shots aren't all over the place. It shoots a decent group about a foot high at 7 yards. I tried it with 130 grain as well as 158 grain ammo, so it's not an ammo issue. The only way I can bring the group back down is to concentrate on not LETTING the muzzle flip up. I have to squeeze the gun so that the muzzle doesn't flip. Even in single action. So my question is: Does the gun begin to move from recoil even before the bullet has left the barrell? Is it me or is there something wrong with the gun? Is there anything that I can do? Also, I regularly practice safely dry firing it, and my hands are pretty steady. Thanks! :banghead:
J frame control?
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Guillermo
member
assuming that it is not a new one, the trigger should be pretty good. If it is an MIM gun, dry fire the heck out of it to "burnish" the parts. It is the only way to reliably smooth the trigger of the MIM parts as they do not polish well.
Also note that especially with a gun with a small grip it is important to wrap the weak hand fairly high. Also note that at least 70% of the recoil control should be with the weak hand, not the trigger hand.
http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html
Good shooting!!!
Also note that especially with a gun with a small grip it is important to wrap the weak hand fairly high. Also note that at least 70% of the recoil control should be with the weak hand, not the trigger hand.
http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html
Good shooting!!!
-Grip the pistol high in the firing hand.
-Bring the support hand up. Grip with the off hand fingers as you normally would.
-Instead of aligning your thumbs, bring the off-hand thumb around the back and squeeze.
Maybe this is taken for granted among revo shooters, but I had no idea about this trick coming from the automatic world. You can also push-pull as you grip. Push with the firing hand, pull with the support hand. Just make sure you don't use the back-wrap thumb trick on a bottom feeder if you switch regularly.
Recoil - yes it begins before the bullet leaves the barrel. There's been an explosion in the chamber, so there's going to be some motion, but not enough to throw the bullet off significantly at 7 yards.
-Bring the support hand up. Grip with the off hand fingers as you normally would.
-Instead of aligning your thumbs, bring the off-hand thumb around the back and squeeze.
Maybe this is taken for granted among revo shooters, but I had no idea about this trick coming from the automatic world. You can also push-pull as you grip. Push with the firing hand, pull with the support hand. Just make sure you don't use the back-wrap thumb trick on a bottom feeder if you switch regularly.
Recoil - yes it begins before the bullet leaves the barrel. There's been an explosion in the chamber, so there's going to be some motion, but not enough to throw the bullet off significantly at 7 yards.
Guillermo
member
Jon,
I am a good shot but I am ALWAYS looking to learn.
A fellow was at Eagle Peak Shooting Range, on the rifle side, shooting a J frame.
He spent about 50 rounds at the 50 yard and then moved to the 100.
You can bet that I asked for a lesson.
Nice fellow that he was, he happily complied.
He helped me get on the paper with my Detective Special at 50. My eyes are not good enough to do better.
He told me that he would grip the gun very lightly with his strong hand and pulled back to his body like a isometric mad man with his left. He had such control that the heal of his strong hand pushed forward but his trigger finger was totally relaxed. Guy was amazing.
The more I learn the more I am humbled by the masters.
Wait until the REALLY good guys come along and give you advice. My words are copper, Old Fuff, David E and the others are gold.
Best of luck.
I am a good shot but I am ALWAYS looking to learn.
A fellow was at Eagle Peak Shooting Range, on the rifle side, shooting a J frame.
He spent about 50 rounds at the 50 yard and then moved to the 100.
You can bet that I asked for a lesson.
Nice fellow that he was, he happily complied.
He helped me get on the paper with my Detective Special at 50. My eyes are not good enough to do better.
He told me that he would grip the gun very lightly with his strong hand and pulled back to his body like a isometric mad man with his left. He had such control that the heal of his strong hand pushed forward but his trigger finger was totally relaxed. Guy was amazing.
The more I learn the more I am humbled by the masters.
Wait until the REALLY good guys come along and give you advice. My words are copper, Old Fuff, David E and the others are gold.
Best of luck.
Guillermo's post just reminded me of one other thing I did when I got into Airlite shooting. Bought a couple of those spring loaded grip exercisers available at Walbogs or a number of sporting goods stores. Do some grip exercises with all fingers, but also practice squeezing leaving the trigger finger relaxed so that you train it for independent control from a firm grip on a J-frame.
Guillermo
member
Tole you that some folks smarter than me would come along and give you good advice
KBintheSLC
Member
Jon,
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you already have a good grasp on the fundamentals of shooting a DA revolver. Could it be the gun? I bought a new 637 last year that had a skewed barrel and shot 6"-8" left of aim at 7 yards. I confirmed this by testing it from a vise. S&W later replaced the entire gun as it could not be repaired. The new gun they sent me was dead on. If you can test it in a vise, you will know if it is you or the gun.
If it is you that is causing the problem, try getting some light loads like a 148g WC loaded in the low 700fps range. Then practice lots of slow fire while focusing on the fundamentals. It took me a while to gain proficiency with my 637, but now I feel good with it out to 25 yards in DA and 50 yards in SA.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you already have a good grasp on the fundamentals of shooting a DA revolver. Could it be the gun? I bought a new 637 last year that had a skewed barrel and shot 6"-8" left of aim at 7 yards. I confirmed this by testing it from a vise. S&W later replaced the entire gun as it could not be repaired. The new gun they sent me was dead on. If you can test it in a vise, you will know if it is you or the gun.
If it is you that is causing the problem, try getting some light loads like a 148g WC loaded in the low 700fps range. Then practice lots of slow fire while focusing on the fundamentals. It took me a while to gain proficiency with my 637, but now I feel good with it out to 25 yards in DA and 50 yards in SA.
hmmm... now you got me thinking. I'm going to have to try in a vise, or at least from a sandbag in single action. It absolutely could be my fault as well. I will have to try out the techniques discussed in this thread and see if that helps any. Great advice guys, thanks!
Ratdog68
Member
I've got a J framed gun too... and puting the Pachmayr Compaq grips helped a LOT. I have fairly large hands, so the grip is still a bit small for me. One thing I've started with this gun is to modify my Weaver stance/grip of the weapon. Instead of gripping with the shooting hand and enveloping my support hand around my shooting hand... I place my support hand's thumb against the backstrap of the grip and then wrap my shooting hand thumb around the support hand's thumb, subsequently giving my shooting hand more to grip. The relatively low recoil of a .38 doesn't have an adverse affect using my support thumb as the first point of contact to the backstrap when fired.
Wolfeye
Member
Like Ratdog68, I too use a Pachmayr compact grip. I've found it's the smallest grip I can comfortably control.
I cross my weak thumb around the back. It helps, and why not? There's no slide or hammer back there.
I'm a skinny guy and can control a Smith airweight pretty well. However, I find that forearm exercises help. I do a bit of woodcarving as a hobby, and I think the benefits spill over into shooting.
I cross my weak thumb around the back. It helps, and why not? There's no slide or hammer back there.
I'm a skinny guy and can control a Smith airweight pretty well. However, I find that forearm exercises help. I do a bit of woodcarving as a hobby, and I think the benefits spill over into shooting.
TexasBill
Member
I had the same problem with my M637 until I changed the grips. The grips from the Model 60 Pro add only 0.56" of height but allow me to use my little finger in gripping the gun. Made the gun much easier to control.
David E
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Yes. Per Newton's 3rd Law of Physics, the gun begins recoiling just as soon as the bullet starts to move forward.
From your description, it's you. If the gun still shot high when you "really concentrate," then we could look at the gun.
You might consider different grips. It would help if you posted a picture of your current technique.
Others have commented on a better hold (70% weak hand, 30% strong hand) There is more to it, but that's a great place to start.
I've posted pics several times of my 5 shot groups at paper plates from about 5 yds fired with my 442 from "high ready" using Federal 158 grain +P LSWCHP's. Folks are probably tired of seeing them, but here is one of them, one more time:
harmon rabb
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Nice groups. I just can't shoot anything with that heavy of a trigger worth a damn. Wish I could!
Lots of advice here on technique, but it seems to me yours may be generally ok. From what you wrote, I'm suspecting the front sight may be too low.
Try having someone else, whom you know to be a good shooter, shoot the gun or, as you suggested, shoot it from a rest.
These things are sensitive to grip. If I grip it high like JM I shoot too low. If I had tried to fix it by buying new grips I would have a drawer full, by filing down the front sight I would have wrecked it. It is you, hold different, hit different.
The only way I can bring the group back down is to concentrate on not LETTING the muzzle flip up.
In addition to the other suggestions, this mat be your problem. Any gun is going to recouil and you have to let it recoil. "Fighting" the recoil will put your rounds all over the place.
In addition to the other suggestions, this mat be your problem. Any gun is going to recouil and you have to let it recoil. "Fighting" the recoil will put your rounds all over the place.
David E
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Maybe this is a matter of semantics, so let's define our terms.
The OP said: The only way I can bring the group back down is to concentrate on not LETTING the muzzle flip up.
He did not say he's "fighting" the recoil, just concentrating on not letting the muzzle flip.
If by "fighting" recoil we mean that, at the moment of ignition, the shooter is intentionally pulling the gun downward to counteract the recoil forces, then I agree with your assessment; the rounds will be all over the place.
Another improper technique is to lightly hold the gun and simply allow the recoil to do what it will. While this may work for single shots or very slowfire, it's not the way to get rapid accuracy out of any gun.
Proper technique has the shooter not "fighting" the recoil, but managing it and doing so consistently.
Until we get pics or a detailed description of the OP's technique, we can only speculate about what his problem is.
When doing this for the first time (use extreme care...)
When firing single handed with a j-frame...imagine punching forward with your firing gun hand. The punching action tends to make this small gun more stable when firing one handed. (at least for me.. )
When firing single handed with a j-frame...imagine punching forward with your firing gun hand. The punching action tends to make this small gun more stable when firing one handed. (at least for me.. )
There is a lot of very good advice in this thread that I will have to try at the range. No, I am not fighting recoil, I am concentrating on managing the muzzle flip. It seems that if I use single action and just let the muzzle flip up, then I shoot high.
Deaf Smith
Member
Jon,
I have a Smith 640 centennial, .38 as well as the 642. I find Secret Service boot grips excellent to help control the little critters.
In the all steel 640 I use Corbon 158gr LSWHPs and in the 642 I use Corbon DPX.
The reason is, the 640, being heavier, can take the heavier bullet and I can still shoot well, either hand. But that 642 is kind of tough to shoot with the 158s, so I use DPX 110 gr. so I can still control it.
I used to have a 340PD, and I did fire magnums out of it. But I could not control it one handed and my wife... hahaha, would not get near that hand cannon. So I sold it off.
You can overpower a J and make it worthless for defense.
Deaf
I have a Smith 640 centennial, .38 as well as the 642. I find Secret Service boot grips excellent to help control the little critters.
In the all steel 640 I use Corbon 158gr LSWHPs and in the 642 I use Corbon DPX.
The reason is, the 640, being heavier, can take the heavier bullet and I can still shoot well, either hand. But that 642 is kind of tough to shoot with the 158s, so I use DPX 110 gr. so I can still control it.
I used to have a 340PD, and I did fire magnums out of it. But I could not control it one handed and my wife... hahaha, would not get near that hand cannon. So I sold it off.
You can overpower a J and make it worthless for defense.
Deaf
To describe my technique... I think that I hold it as I would an autoloader. I hold it with my strong hand pretty tightly, applying pressure from the backstrap to the front, and pushing. The fingers from my weak hand then come in front of my strong hand. I apply pressure with my weak hand side to side. I also the gun into me with my weak hand, while pushing out with my strong hand. My thumbs are where they would be if I were shooting a bottom feeder, to the left side of the gun, both pointing forward. ( I am right handed.)
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